would like to see some pics of Rack & Pinion set ups ?

[fast fiat]

Hi all , would like to see some pics of rack and pinion setups . I'm using a stock TRW box right now but to make it work I had to modify one of my tie rods and I'm not liking the angles of my steering shaft U-Joints . The new front clip of the Fiat is slightly different  . If i go R&P my clearance issues will go away . Was hoping to see some ways you guys and gals mounted them .THANKS , Pat

[scott dees]

ill look around- ive got some pics of how NOT to mount one   I cut it off and went back to a stock box

[fast fiat]

Sorry to hear that Scott . I really like the stock box too but no matter what I do or where I put it , I have clearace issues with the chassis or my steering angle is to much .

[Dean N]

i used a rabbit r&p setup on my car. 

the person that installed it for me said location is critical in order to minimize bump steer issues.

ill get a pic for you and post it.

[scott dees]

i cant find them- it was a center mount saco offroad rack (way to heavy duty for a drag car) and i the mount flexed as you turned the wheels. 

[fast fiat]

Ok , Thanks Scott for trying . I may swing by Ron's tomorrow and see what he's got there .

Thank you too Dean

[Tom Simon]

Hey Pat, the problem with fitting R&P steering set up to a beam front end is bump steer. It has to do with the trailing arm design of a beam front end. I've seen guys use them on sand and offraod cars, but the dirt is pretty forgiving, I guess you don't notice the toe change that much. If there is any way you can use a steering box, and use 2 universal joints in your steering column to put it where you want it, I belive you'd be better off. my 2cents

[Dean N]

you would still get bump steer with a steering box wouldnt you?

isnt it more of a matter of placement then the unit itself?

how about with r&p.. use one tie rod to a spindle and then go from sindle to spindle to take out BS.?  thast the way yours is setup isnt it tom?  (but with SB)

[fast fiat]

Thanks guys , This car has always been , and continues to be , the , 10 lbs of dookie in a 5lb. bag , senario . (For example , and good idea by the way) spindle to spindle tie rod location is right about where my foot is when the clutch is pushed in . I'm going to try one more mock up with the box and see what I come up with .  thanks again , Pat

[JCL]

there are a number of different options. I am sure that something can be worked out with either type of steering box. This is much to complex to discuss here but if you  would like to stop by I am sure that I can be of help.
                                                                     Jimmy @ JCL

[Marty]

Problem with tieing the spindles together with a single rod is that ANY bump steer at all will cause both wheels to turn in one direction or the other. With separate tie rods the bump steer cause the fronts to toe in and toe out. This is not ideal eaither but FAR better than turning both wheels the same direction.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

My setup is a facotry late model Rack/piniion setup. Factory location has little to no bump steer effects.
A superbeetle r/p is backwards acting for a Ball joint beam. The steering nuckles are on the front side of the spindles on a SuperBeetle... (main reason for the Super Shimmies)....

[blue manx]

 I now this is a buggy trick but could you center mount the stock steering box? I have seen a couple of buggies with a r/p and the bump steer was huge!

[t-3racer]

Pat, I am mounting a narrowed Pinto rack on my RLR chassis. I can shoot you some pics next week if you are interested.

[John Palmer]

Are you running a coilover spindle type suspension?  If the tie rods are too close to your feet maybe try to reverse the spindles and make it a "front steer".  Jimmy L. is right, something will work but it's hard to "see it" on the internet.  Good Luck in your build.

[dangerous]

I had some shocking bump steer on my chassis car at first,
but was able to reduce it down to better than the stock steering box with a lot of work.

The closer you get the tie rods to match the arc of the trailing arm the better.

This was done in my case by changing the height at which the heims attach to the stubs.
I also could NOT re-mount the rack at a better height,
 so modified it with a lower center pivot.

This achieved two things,
The longer arms had less angle change through travel,
and the lower pivot position got the angle closer to the trailing arms.

I have scanned some old photos and will load them up as soon as they are cropped and hosted.

[dangerous]

This is how I mounted the rack.
It needed to be lower and further forward.
But this will depend on what angle your trailing arms operate at.



Here you can see how NOT to do it!
I made the tie rods shorter(the rack was off a GM product here in Aust.), and straight.
With this set-up it had 1" toe change over 6" wheel travel.
It was undrivable.





Just moving the outboard heims ABOVE the steering arms made a huge improvement,
despite the greater angle.
But it was still not good enough.

[dangerous]

So I modified the rack with a single lower pivot.



Ignore the crash damage.



You guys can buy racks over there pretty cheap, so I would not bother to modify anything off a road car again.
And here you can see the out board heim is now above the steering arm.



I made a bunch of 1/2" thick spacers for the heim joints, so that I could use trial and error to get the point of least bump steer.
In the end it was less than 1/8" over 6" wheel travel.

I have to mention that the crash damage was unrelated to the steering geometry!

Guys like Ron and Jim will know from experience where to mount the rack to get it so very close,
and they will help to save you a lot of time in set up.

[fast fiat]

Thanks for the input .
Great pics Dangerous ... thanks.

Jimmy , you have mail .

[elmo]

David, I think I see the problem with your rack setup- the steering wheel is on the "wrong" side!

[Dean N]

here are some pics of my setup, it is a rabbit r&p.  Jeff Newcomb has same setup on his ghia.. his is nicer looking

[fast fiat]

Thanks again everyone.

Nice pics Dean thanks .
 
I met and spoke with Jim Larsen today and got alot of really good information as well as some hands on examples of , correct and incorrect , bump steer geometry . Thanks alot Jim , for taking the time with me .    Pat

[akabuzz]

The R/P i use is the heavy duty center load on both buggy and bug.

[fast fiat]

The R/P i use is the heavy duty center load on both buggy and bug.

    Hi Buzz , would like to come by sometime and check out your set ups . Was there once awhile back but we were busy icing the new Fiat body deal with rat crap and traps included LOL.  I will call you soon .   Pat

[Eric T]

We also have a center R/P on our manx.

Sorry don't have any close up pics

[Greg G]

Problem with tieing the spindles together with a single rod is that ANY bump steer at all will cause both wheels to turn in one direction or the other. With separate tie rods the bump steer cause the fronts to toe in and toe out. This is not ideal eaither but FAR better than turning both wheels the same direction.

You mean like this? I forget how much bump steer it had, but it wasn't much.

Greg G.

[mightymanx]

Pat, I can try and get some pictures of Dennis' car up here  it uses a off road rack in the center to Anglea spindles on a A-arm setup all heim joints. I don't know if that would help or not. Are you looking for vw beam only??

Dan   

[fast fiat]

Pat, I can try and get some pictures of Dennis' car up here it uses a off road rack in the center to Anglea spindles on a A-arm setup all heim joints. I don't know if that would help or not. Are you looking for vw beam only??

Dan

Hi Dan , my set up is vw beam (King and link) . I think I just about have it figured out now . But thanks for the offer of the pics .
How are you doing with the Mighty Manx?

Thanks Eric T and Greg G

[mightymanx]

Anytime I can help Pat I'm glad to, just let me know.

How are you doing with the Mighty Manx?

 
Other than being deployed and the winter finaly comming to an end it's going good.

 I am hoping to get my licence in early May after I get back. The car is almost ready spent some $$$ got new slicks, fronts, harness, chassis cert phisical, just need a new ring and pinion and I am ready.

Dan