vanagon automatic in a race car?

[vdubinluvin]

im iterested in outing a vanagon auto trans in a type3 chassis car im not positive of the weight or the car im guessing 1300lb what are the pros and cons and does anyone have hi-po part? any responce is Appreciated thanks..gilbert!

[dave greiner]

Pro:
      Very strong, will handle 450 plus HP
      minimal maintainance, see above
      full throttle shifts with a manual valve body
      Very good handling with the IRS rear suspension
Cons:
       75 lbs heavier than a bus box
      will eat up about 10-15% of your horsepower
       hard to stage and stall up the converter without a trans brake
       custom fabrication to mount trans and shifter
       cam selection need to match the stall speed of the converter (lots of testing)

       

[vdubinluvin]

i dont mind the extra 75lbs and the fab to install  but who has the info on a trans brake and hi-po parts im going to go further in to this....thanks....gilbert

[Frallan2]

Hi Dave,

I have followed your car since it I found it first time on the Top 10 list. Good to see it getting new life and revival down under.
In fact I started driving on the street and experimented with a 090 in my -67 beetle way back 15 years. This is  shortly after visiting Dave and Duane Pizzo brothers and seeing their nice fastback perform. Talk about being convinced as I pulled out a Porsche 915 out of the car to put in the auto.

I bought a couple of converters from Munsinger for my own usage and to some other Swedes too.

What I never did was buy a good 010 trans with manual shifting.
I just renovated it and ran it with higher line pressure and I played with the governor too. Thats it. I did not connect a pressure gauge so it was done randomly.
It worked well for many years as long distance driving and some street fun but it was never succesful on the strip. Not so much to blaim on the trans but rather my engine combinations.

I am also owner of a VW dragster since even way further back. I now intend to revive it with a 090 trans and a new converter from Munsinger. Engine will be healthy on HP.
Can you build or can you (or anyone else?) tell me were I can buy a ready prepped 090 similar to yours with manual shift modification?

[Fastback]

I have this set up in my car now! Dave Folts built it,has his axles (inboard 1350 u joint)and biellet input shaft,modified drum and valve body,I installed as trans brake too.This car will be complete very soon.I used a cast iron diff section with a spool,Audi valve body ,continental conveter, air shifted.You will have to "center" the diff in the car,the bellhousing will be about 1-1/2 inches to the right.And then search for a converter core! needs to have the ring gear on it

[Frallan2]

Nice!

In fact I already did install the 010 trans 15 years ago in my -67. I did my own axles and used 930 CV joints. The offset is a mess.
In a steel pan body the space constrictions with the torison bars, is  a mess too.
Munsinger sourced the cores for my converters. I think I bought three or more from them.

My question goes to who did the manual shift conversion and auto modifications? Dave also? I  thought he only worked with manual transmissions.

[the burnout king]

Hobi's Car has hand one for a long while now.....

[Frallan2]

Thanks for input!
Very appreciated.

So if there are a number of guys with this 090 Vanagon and working well, then there are some technology tested and ready to be bought. I just want to minimize my own testing this time.
I will  contcat Dave and I will buy one or more converters from Mike in Chino.

This is going to be fun.
The dragster will have my old T1 with 911 OHC heads and a Whipple SC on top. Something like 300-400 hp. Dragster was 650 lbs without me, so now it could end up below 900d lbs iincluding me, the heavier engine and transmission. Will give me a good nostalgic kick.
The dragster will also be getting a totally new rear end chassis. Prolonged from the cage back in order to get better weight balance.

Any more information is ofcourse welcome for me and others too.

By the way. Next week I will post some pictures of Pizzo Bros fastback and article in VW Trends from early 90´s.

[Frallan2]

Anyone with knowledge on the right number to Dave Folts.
I tried many websites and they all list La Habra number 562 694 5591 but it is not valid when I call.
Ofcourse I use the US prefix of +1 when calling from abroad but still no go.
Tip anyone?

[Fastback]

909-923-5970 

Anyone with knowledge on the right number to Dave Folts.
I tried many websites and they all list La Habra number 562 694 5591 but it is not valid when I call.
Ofcourse I use the US prefix of +1 when calling from abroad but still no go.
Tip anyone?

[rx2rotary]

 

[rx2rotary]

 i had a vanagon trans in a 1970 ghia.the trans had a dave folts spool .it had a audi 5000 turbo automatic(audi has four planetary gears and the vw has three planetary gears)  and the vanagon diff housing.i  made a trans brake that worked with out one problem.i  made a flex plate out of two flex plate's removed the rivots and tig welded the holes;removed the crank hub from the other then tig welded the plates together;.the trans brake is to complicated to explain how i did it with out pictures;the set up was a 2234(84x92) 60-1 turbo and nos to spool it up;this is how it worked for me. i had a limiter for the boost set at 12 psi when staged.i would stage the car, set the trans brake ,set full throttle and then squeeze it while i  was on the trans brake(yes nitrous while i was staged)this car never ran to its full potential because i started another problem (project mazda rx2).the car only ran about 12 1/8 mile passes best 6.94 @ 99 mph with a 1.504 60 ft.it had only about 8 1/4 mile passes with the best 11.304 @120 mph.the engine made 340 hp (6.94 at a weight of about 2250 lbs takes about 340 hp to get that number)hobi has my trans brake in his car.he had a problem up in sac last week end the trans is not shifting right and the brake is not quit right for some reason

[Frallan2]

Thanks Rx2rotary,

All input is apreciated.
It is quite fun to see how we have solved it in exactly same way.
First time I adapted the 090 was in the same way as you.
Some friends were shocked when I put up the GB wedgemated crank and flywheel in the lathe and started churning away. It was not for the heart fainted.
Anyway, the flexplate was taken from a TIV were I just drilled out the rivets.
What was left over of the wedgemate from the flywheel was then mated to the loose flexplate and bolted together were the rivets use to be.
Then I TIG welded on both sides were they mated.
Once I changed engine to a TIV it was much easier. Ready made flexplate available.

Your driving style with NOS seems good.
Pizzo bros had another style. They put on huge Ford drums in the back and then they stalled the trans with a very loose converter to 4-5000 rpm and a lot but not full boost against the brakes. Worked quite well and they ran 9s and had around 440 hp.

Once again thanks Fastback for the new phone number. It is just about time for me to go bed but hopefully Dave has started his Friday morning in a good mood when I now call him.

[Frallan2]

Pizzo bros beautiful racer from 1992 and 9.4 s car 466 hp.
I love it. If I remember right, it ended up in Japan, was crashed and then I do not know if it was repaired but should still be there.
Look at those drum brakes to keep it standstill while stalling.
The first test blew the CVs to pieces until they upgraded to racing 930.
The guys also built a dragster with 090 auto transmisison. Not sure what engine but I think it was something VW watercooled. Maybe the narrow 10 degree V6.

Seeing and hearing them test the transmission after overview/haul was amazing. One guy in the car and another on the side with line pressure measurement.
Full power on the brake and then slight throttle. A short delay and then the boost would build, few seconds holding it and then full throttle.
The boost would peg 30 psi and the transmission would just bump through second and third to full 7000 and against the brake. The full event takes 5 - 6 seconds and by then you know it is going to work on the track.

[Frallan2]

What a mess!

Photobucket failed me for the first time today in more than a year so i found a new place to host. No go. Just this mess.
Resized the pictures and tried the additional options with direct hosting from this site by uppload. No go. Error on page.....
At least the hosting is working and the direct links are OK.

Also very slow speed on my internet connection.Very frustrating. Will try again tomorrow morning from work, if they now have good speed there tomorrow......

edit :OK; got it working through Photobucket again. Better.
Dave Folts was out Friday so I hope to get hold of him coming days.

[Fastback]

your car is 2250?......how much does Hobi's car weigh? he runs around 11's?

i had a vanagon trans in a 1970 ghia.the trans had a dave folts spool .it had a audi 5000 turbo automatic(audi has four planetary gears and the vw has three planetary gears)  and the vanagon diff housing.i  made a trans brake that worked with out one problem.i  made a flex plate out of two flex plate's removed the rivots and tig welded the holes;removed the crank hub from the other then tig welded the plates together;.the trans brake is to complicated to explain how i did it with out pictures;the set up was a 2234(84x92) 60-1 turbo and nos to spool it up;this is how it worked for me. i had a limiter for the boost set at 12 psi when staged.i would stage the car, set the trans brake ,set full throttle and then squeeze it while i  was on the trans brake(yes nitrous while i was staged)this car never ran to its full potential because i started another problem (project mazda rx2).the car only ran about 12 1/8 mile passes best 6.94 @ 99 mph with a 1.504 60 ft.it had only about 8 1/4 mile passes with the best 11.304 @120 mph.the engine made 340 hp (6.94 at a weight of about 2250 lbs takes about 340 hp to get that number)hobi has my trans brake in his car.he had a problem up in sac last week end the trans is not shifting right and the brake is not quit right for some reason

[nbturbo]

I am also building a Drag Beetle and will be using an auto trans.I have a 2.6 Autocraft motor with Methanol Injection-but will be running electronic injection with Bosch injectors and a Haltec ECU.In the pic of the fastback-it's difficult to see if the trans has been centred with equal length axles.Do you think it is neccessary to shift the trans across to centre the diff housing.I plan on using the auto from a Type3 with the aluminium diff housing-to keep the weight down.I am running a Type3 auto in my street Oval with a 2.7lt Type4 engine.I have had the auto beefed up with the clutch drums machined to take thicker clutch packs and had the convertor modified to stall at 2,500 RPM.With a really mild camshaft and fuel injection-this combo for street use is awesome.I should be able to redrill a Type3 driveplate with the 8 dowell holes and bolt to the Autocraft crank.Was actually thinking of using 2 drive plates with the centre hub removed from one and then welded together for greater torsional strength.Keep all the good info and pics coming-good reading.Dave's car that came down here to Aus has not seen the light of day yet.It's about 4,000Kms away from me-so when it finally comes out for a run-I won't be able to get to see it and check out the fabrication work.What modifications have been done to the diff section.I have got a second hand diff from a rear wheel drive Holden V8 car which runs big CV's and LSD.Will pull it apart to see if the carrier can be modified to fit into the Auto.

[Frallan2]

Hi nbturbo,

I have followed your build on Aussievedubs. Congratulations to a nice build!
Very exciting to hear you are now going drag racing too.

The only reason why I do not share pictures of my 090 assembly in to my -67 is because it was quick "butcher" excerise in terms of finish.
It works though and it is fun to hear we have similar solution. Considering that the auto trans has had one turbo T1, one SC TIV and one 2,7 Weber 48 TIV and the best ET was with the Weber 48, it is same description I say, awesome. Many people were surprised how well it worked on the street.

I will check the other Pizzo bros pictures and see if I can determine if the trans was centerd or not. 99% sure it was centered.
Mine is centered and I made own unequal length driveshafts from Ford Granada (re-splined 28 for the 930 CVs) with an additional spacer on one side.

[rx2rotary]

to answer "fastbacks" question i am not sure how much hobis car weighs but i do know with his new non turbo engine he is making around 305 hp. i think her has goon 11.0'S 11.teens in the 1/4and 6.70'S in the 1/8.my car was  a hack job experimental see if it will work car.i did as much as i could with minimal money spent.my input shaft was stock vw.for axles i used axles from a (i am not sure of the model number 924?)924. the Porsche that nobody wants. the junk yard has at least 2or 3 with that slant 4 cylinder "pos".this Porsche had a automatic trans.with the engine/transmission centered in the ghia  the axles bolted right in(with type 2 stub axles),chris from continental converters from Inglewood ca worked my converter and it stalled at about 4200 rpm.i mounted my trans brake solenoid on the outside of the trans.i had about $1000 in the trans combo.years ago(89-91) i worked for quaid imports in riverside ca were pizzo would bring there Isuzu tow trucks for service.that yellow fast back is were i got my idea for the automatic transmission.from what i remember rules were changed because this car ran to good?it has been a long time i could be wrong.i hope to see a lot more people run these transmissions. it just takes a little more horse power to run and you are a couple of three  tenths  slower.once dialed in trans problems are gone.

[Fastback]

check it out

[Frallan2]

Thanks Fastback!

That is sooo beautiful.
More, if you have.

Some years ago a friend of mine ran the Folts axle conversion on his 2666 cc street racer for combined street and strip.
After breaking the joint twice in separate ocassions (002 box) and coming out of it without any serious damage, he decided to switch to 930 Cvs. Many years later and no incident in spite of a lot of stress proves how good the CVs can be. I do prefer the good old style axles or IRS with HD CVs.
Now, maybe Dave has come up with new development since then, I do not know.
I do know the Dave Folts conversion is very popular, so there has to be some reason and reliability record.

Love those Geers/Strange brakes too!

[Frallan2]

Success!
Contact done with Dave Folts. Now we will see if we can work out a deal. He is a busy man and this trans is not his main business.
Will keep you posted.

[FITNESSFORYOUTOO]

Thanks Fastback!

That is sooo beautiful.
More, if you have.

Some years ago a friend of mine ran the Folts axle conversion on his 2666 cc street racer for combined street and strip.
After breaking the joint twice in separate ocassions (002 box) and coming out of it without any serious damage, he decided to switch to 930 Cvs. Many years later and no incident in spite of a lot of stress proves how good the CVs can be. I do prefer the good old style axles or IRS with HD CVs.
Now, maybe Dave has come up with new development since then, I do not know.
I do know the Dave Folts conversion is very popular, so there has to be some reason and reliability record.

Love those Geers/Strange brakes too!

U joints are far superior to CV joints in strength, V8 pro mod cars are putting over 2,500 HP to U joints with no failures, the only reason they would break is if you put too much angle on them by squatting too much. A VW should never break a U joint and if it does you can bet the car is not set up right.

[Fastback]

if you look at the axle tube/trailingf arm I have built a retention device,If the u joit comes apart the ,the wheel will remain under the car,real trick telescoping part on heim joints.Rear brake are JCL/strange he makes the parts for G

Thanks Fastback!

That is sooo beautiful.
More, if you have.

Some years ago a friend of mine ran the Folts axle conversion on his 2666 cc street racer for combined street and strip.
After breaking the joint twice in separate ocassions (002 box) and coming out of it without any serious damage, he decided to switch to 930 Cvs. Many years later and no incident in spite of a lot of stress proves how good the CVs can be. I do prefer the good old style axles or IRS with HD CVs.
Now, maybe Dave has come up with new development since then, I do not know.
I do know the Dave Folts conversion is very popular, so there has to be some reason and reliability record.

Love those Geers/Strange brakes too!

[dangerous]

Remembering that a normal use of  U-Joint is before the R&P,
meaning it has around 4 times less torque transfer than AFTER the R&P.

Yes V8 cars make much more but you get the picture.

Some buddys of mine went for billet yolks, and 35 spline size  axles and their problems were over,
stil with the VW spline on the other end for the drum/rotor.

The yolks they got from Folts with the chunky spline were only available in cast material.
May be different now.

Yes apparently a uni' can only handle more than 4 degrees for a very short time.

The other thing is when operating at any angle, their rate or rotation transfer is NOT CONSTANT.
This means fast and slow parts for EACH revolution.

Thus the invention of a CONSTANT VELOCITY joint.

[FITNESSFORYOUTOO]

How about this then there are quite a few Corvettes like my friends big block twin turbo 85 in Fairfield that have over 1,000 HP to the wheels and that is though U joint axles after the ring and pinion my friend. I guess there went that theory...

[Mike Lawless]

Dave, I bought billet yokes from Inland Empire Driveline for the inner axle end of the Folts axle. I took a gamble and I ended up being right based on my experience years ago setting up ring and pinions for v8 guys. It's a 10 spline pinion yoke for an 8.75" Mopar rear end, with a small modification. This was 2-3 years ago.

One of my original yokes failed because it used a strap and capscrew arrangement like a stock Mopar to retain the u-joint. The strap broke, and the ujoint of course, twisted out and destroyed the yoke and u-joint. From what I understand, I must have been the only person on earth to get the yokes that way when I bought the axle kit. Everyone else seemed to have the "U-Bolt" type retainer on theirs.

If you have the strap and capscrew type retainer, it would be wise to drill the bolt holes and convert it to u-bolts. I also make it a point to replace the u-joints every year because they are not being used as they were designed to be used.

[JVance]

How about this then there are quite a few Corvettes like my friends big block twin turbo 85 in Fairfield that have over 1,000 HP to the wheels and that is though U joint axles after the ring and pinion my friend. I guess there went that theory...

Are the U-joints a structural pivot of the suspension on that Corvette? You don't have to answer the question. Just think about it.

[FITNESSFORYOUTOO]

Are the U-joints a structural pivot of the suspension on that Corvette? You don't have to answer the question. Just think about it.

No they are not and they do not have to be on a properly set up VW, something like fastback has but with two links to take the load off the joint.

[Mike Lawless]

To NOT be an active suspension member, you would need control arms like a corvette or CV joint type supension as well as a slip yoke for the axles. Otherwise the suspension would bind. That is of course unless the control arm and the axle share common pivot points and swing on identical arcs.
Is not Fastback linkage member a slip joint? If so, it's really not not an active member till the u-joint fails and it extends or compresses to its limit is it? That is what it's intent looks to be to me.
But now we're drifting off the subject of automatic transmissions, which I find fascinating!

[fiatdude]

if you look at the axle tube/trailingf arm I have built a retention device,If the u joit comes apart the ,the wheel will remain under the car,real trick telescoping part on heim joints.Rear brake are JCL/strange he makes the parts for G

I see that one little spot of oil on the floor shame on you LOL

That car is totally cool and clean -- I say this after I spent the afternoon with a plasma cutter and a BFH trying to find a little extra tire clearance in the back of the Fiat

[daveaptubes]

No they are not and they do not have to be on a properly set up VW, something like fastback has but with two links to take the load off the joint.

Remove the u-joints and roll the car around!!!! What happens to the alignment? Toe-in? Camber?

[FITNESSFORYOUTOO]

Ideally the two rods would be parallel with the swing axle with the axle in between them and braced in case of a broken bolt or U joint. With this setup the axle will stay in alignment even if the U joint breaks. In the Corvettes they just have drive shafts in between the third member and stub axle so the swing axle setup is actually safer if done right. I have bought many wrecked Corvettes and rebuilt them so I know the subject well.

[fast daddy]

hi,

 Have been drag racing with a VW automatic for many years. Best times: Low 6's @ 116 mph
 This transmission is in a full tube '52 split window now.

 Be sure to read the information box at the right of the page.
 
  The video of MILLER BROTHERS EFI TURBO VW RAIL BUGGY is listed below.
 If link doesn't work, just search the title name on U-tube.


   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpVcSzjA6to

thanks

[dangerous]

Wow, what a rocket.
I think I can hear the heads leaking though..could be the waste gate?