The Stripped 66...Random updates and other crap

[JVance]

Nope...just got back from vacation (then a conference in San Antonio). Electromotive just shipped the new EFI and I should get the alternator replaced today or tomorrow.

[Oliver Frey]

I don't use the Isky guide bars. The *design* is basically a guide plate with a flat surface machined on the lifter.

What material are you using for the guide plate? Self lubricating?

[JVance]

If and when Rocky wants to disclose more about the roller set-up, he can. Until then, my lips are zipped...sorry

[Oliver Frey]

stripped I can respect that, I have two motors with guided rollers with two different guide plate designs. I used Pauter rollers with the precision ground flat on the side and they have been working perfectly.

[JVance]

A late update, but an update nonetheless. Pulled the engine in the Summer of 2008, to change the cam and prep for turbocharging. I experienced some wear in the lifter bores that was beyond my comfort level, so the case went back to Rocky to resleeve the lifter bores. The Isky lifters may have been to blame; I speculate that the tall pushrod cup increased the angle of the pushrod coming off the lifter. That angle was deflected through the lifter in the bore, and the wear pattern appeared to reflect this. Replaced the Isky's with Pauter's lifters (Crowers) and they went back into the case with almost no modifications.

Here's the roller lifter set-up. Pretty much the same as with the Isky's, but now using the Pauter lifters:

[JVance]

My buddy August welded up my manifolds (CB Performance fuel-injection manifolds):


I match-ported them to my heads:


And ported the inlets:


Did a little work to the combustion chambers to pick up a few CCs and lower the compression ratio (from 12.0:1 to 9.0:1):

[JVance]

Finally, a respectable bracket for the crank-position sensor:


A1 header with T3/T4 Innovative ball-bearing turbo:


Drain back into the case for the breather tank:


Mock up of the intake:


Here it is, a bit closer to it's final assembly:


Maybe more pics later, if I find time to take some...

[drgouk]

Hello,
        What cam are you running now? a smaller pauter grind? Were you happy with the VN119 in the N/a spec? Im going to be using a VN119 in my 2789cc engine. Please let me know your thoughts.

Regards

David Gouk

[2stroke]

BOV?

[JVance]

Hello,
        What cam are you running now? a smaller pauter grind? Were you happy with the VN119 in the N/a spec? Im going to be using a VN119 in my 2789cc engine. Please let me know your thoughts.

Regards

David Gouk

Yes, I was very happy with the VN119. However, the challenge of this build has been the valvetrain, and running stiff enough springs that fit the 044 heads. The 7000+ RPM redline that the VN119 liked was not something that promoted longevity with these valve springs. With the turbo, I wouldn't need the high RPMs to make power, so a smaller cam was chosen (and a lower redline) to increase valvetrain longevity.

[JVance]

BOV?

Not yet.

[Beetspeed]

Cool that your going to run a turbo!

But...no intercooling? (or do you use WI ?)

Still using ACN's alu straight PR's?

Tnx,
Walter

[JVance]

Cool that your going to run a turbo!

But...no intercooling? (or do you use WI ?)

Neither. I plan to run an intercooler after I replace the stock cooling system with a 911-style shroud (which is another story...).

Still using ACN's alu straight PR's?

Nope. I can't remember how long those lasted...maybe 2K miles before I busted one? Thinking that I was undersprung for the roller cam, I tried the alu pushrods hoping that it would combat valve float. I knew I was outside the design specifications, but I hoped that at 9.3", they would hold up. It wasn't meant to be, and after a good talk with Don Pauter, I stepped up to a .090" wall Manton chromoly pushrod. I probably could have run the dual-taper alu pushrods, but after eating 3 sets of alu pushrods (1 set I personally screwed up, 1 set I never received, and 1 set that included the pushrod I broke), I realized that this experiment was getting expensive. The Mantons are a sure-thing.

[JVance]

Finally got around to converting the cooling system over to a 911-style shroud. It's been a headache from start to finish...

The WBX case has a few unique protrusions that the Type 1 case does not have:


That required some modification to the fan-mount:

[JVance]

After trimming and mocking up the shroud, I realized that simply reversing the stock-style EFI end-castings and running the intake in front of the shroud was not going to work. The shroud is fairly tall in front of the fan/plenum. So, that required machining a set of 2.5" tall spacers to lift the end-castings up:






And a bit more trimming to other EFI components (this crank-position sensor mount) to make things fit nicely:

[JVance]

Here's a mock-up of the manifold and spacer:


All of the yellow leads in the background are the thermocouple leads for the 4-channel cylinder head temp gauge:

[JVance]

Finally getting around to assembly:



And a good shot of the firewall left for me by the previous owner

[Beetspeed]

Cool! Like the update!
I like the Gerd Weiser shroud a little better as far as 911 shrouds on type 1 engines go, but still very curieus what your 4-way thermocouples will reed.

What cylinders are you using now? They look different than when you were n/a iirc?

Tnx,
Walter

[JVance]

Pauter, ductile iron cylinders.

[JVance]

More fun today, re-routing oil lines...

...here was the bundle of snakes "before":


Here's the "after":


And here's where they went:

[KAFUR1]

what 911 shroud are you using ?

[JVance]

POS Bernie Bergmann.

[DonPauter]

Interesting thread you've got here Jason,  please continue with your updates.
                                                                                       D P

[KAFUR1]

Did you add any air defletors inside ?   Plenty of room for a procharger !!!!!!!

[JVance]

Interesting thread you've got here Jason,  please continue with your updates.
                                                                                       D P

Thanks Don! There will be plenty more through this spring!

Did you add any air defletors inside ?

Not yet. My plans are detailed here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=372579

I will be logging the CHT's on all 4 cylinders with no deflectors, then progressively add deflectors until an optimum is achieved...if it is achieved.

Plenty of room for a procharger !!!!!!!

Already considered that; but, consider that a Procharger produces boost with the square of RPM. If you have geared your Procharger to produce 9 psi at 6000 rpm, it will only produce 3 psi at 3000 rpm; at the only time it will ever produce 9 psi under this scenario is at 6000 rpm. Think about that. You're being fed a lot of bench-racing BS and generalizations in your thread. Prochargers lack the low-end boost of a standard supercharger, and they don't have the top-end powerband that a turbo can provide. Do your research, learn how it produces airflow across the RPM range and determine whether it is the right option for you before you side with the anecdotes from the V8 crowd.

[JVance]

New intake plumbing:





I fired it up today, idled like crap (but it did fire up on the first try :lol: ). Found out that those fancy manifold spacers I made are a little too wide, side to side, and were sitting on some casting flashing on the head and not seated on the gaskets. Major vacuum leak. I'll mill a bit more off the spacers tomorrow and try again

[bugnut]

crap, man, and I'm excited about my first stroker build: your project puts me to shame!

[JVance]

Yeah, but it's your fault I'm in this mess...you just had to get me hooked on VWs

[bugnut]

Yeah, but it's your fault I'm in this mess...you just had to get me hooked on VWs

In my best Kramer voice, "Giddyup!"

[JVance]

Update:

With the Christmas/semester break, I found about a week and a half to work on the cooling shroud. Unfortunately, I've been suffering from bronchitis/asthma/allergy/something since Thanksgiving, and the persistent coughing led to a broken rib (snapped in half)  :? , and possibly one more that is presently undiagnosed. This was a painful week.

Also, I'd like to thank local VW enthusiast and racer Scott Sain for providing me the garage space to do the work (as I have no garage). He's definitely one of the coolest folks I've met in the hobby, and is the personification of southern hospitality.

I had two major tasks to accomplish; one was adding the oil drain to the 3/4 head (I used to have this when the car was N/A, and had it welded up when I turbo'd it), the other was to continue development on my Bergmann shroud.

I had a chance to look at the wear patterns on my Pauter lifters. If some of you recall, a few summers ago during the changeover to forced induction, I was not happy with the wear I observed on the ISKY lifters I was originally running. These were a tall pushrod cup lifter; the pushrod cup actually stuck out of the case at full lift. The benefits were running a short pushrod, but we did not consider the increased pushrod angle would reflect enough force into the lifter to cause it to want to "lever" in the bore and cause a diagonal wear pattern. Again, this would probably be fine for a race-only engine that saw limited miles over the course of its short life, especially since the short pushrod would be advantageous; but for a street/daily-driven engine, this isn't what we wanted to see.

Rocky rebushed the lifter bores that summer and we opted to run the Pauter roller lifter. The pushrod cup is recessed into the body of the lifter, closer to the stock pushrod cup location. After 5000 miles on this new set-up, I'm much happier with the wear patterns. There is no more diagonal wear as observed with the ISKY's. The wear pattern on the Pauter lifter is isolated to just the top and bottom of the lifter, indicative of the shear load during both valve opening and valve closing. The wear is consistent across all 8 lifters, on both sides of the engine, suggesting that the oil supply to both banks of lifter bores are also consistent. I've posted a few pics below; excuse the graininess of my cell-phone camera, as I tried to capture the location of the wear patterns just behind the roller wheel on the top and bottom of each lifter (you can kind of see a "dull" patch on the lifter in the 2nd pic; this would be the wear pattern I'm describing). Overall, everything looks good, all roller wheels roll nice and tight, and valve clearances have be consistent over the past year and half. I expect the next 5000 miles will be as trouble-free as the last.







Now, on to the modifications to the Bergmann shroud. One issue I've found with the Bergmann shroud is it's poor fit, gaping holes around the cylinder heads (notably, behind the exhaust port fins). To address this, I made simple deflectors that attached to the heads and interfaced with the inside of the shroud.







The goal was to prevent air from flowing past the cooling fins and simply out of the gaps in the shroud. The deflectors were mounted to the outside of the exhaust port fins, closing a major gap in shroud, and to the head to direct airflow down onto and in between the fins. This is not the most elegant solution, short of reglassing the shroud, but relatively easy.

Another criticism is the lack of airflow around the underside of the cylinders and heads. Several other folks have suggested solutions to aid the control of airflow,

sumtihg worth considering (no im no guru)

i always had at the back of my head,
911 style fan and shroud, you could try the super cool tins

mod it like sum1 did here in the forums to have the center part form like a pyramid/deflector for the air to move to the front and rear cylinders

should it help? datalogging would judge that,

but from my newbie mind.. it seems ideal seeing that this would make the exit of the air only below each of the 4 cylinders?

As for bergman's shroud, lemme make an illustration real quick.

ok, see how the airflow is forced into the fins and goes all the way around each cylinder?  That's how most aircooled engines are.  Does Bernies shroud do that?  doesen't look like it

And, of course, if you evaluate the Klaus 911-shroud, controlling airflow around the undersides of the cylinders and heads is one of the unique features that sets their shrouds apart from the rest:




The stock cooling tin, in its complete form, controls airflow down the sides and around the underside of the cylinders and heads. The Bergmann shroud does not; it just dumps air on top and down the sides of the cylinders and heads with no mechanism to direct airflow to the fins underneath, and no mechanism to control plenum pressure. Air isn't simply going to loiter around the underside of the cylinders and heads and cool off like goth kids at the mall.

So, after initially dismissing Ralf's suggestion, I decided to buy a set of Type 3 "cool tins". I should have stuck to my guns because that was a mistake and a waste of money (sorry Ralf); the Type 3 tins simply require too much modification to fit my engine case and interfere with my pushrod tubes. On a type 1 case with standard diameter pushrod tubes, this might be an option. Oh well, lesson learned (again).

So, with a large sheet of aluminum, snips, and some safety wire, I constructed some tin of my own:

fitting the tin around the cylinders:


The tin divides the airflow down the middle. Holes are cut into the underside to provide an exit for the cooling air. If this restricts airflow too much, I can always snip away at the underside to open it up:


And fit into place:




I also extended the tin along the side of the head fins and wrapping around the underside. These fit sung alongisde the head when the shroud is placed on the engine. Hopefully this will direct air across the underside of the head:





After reinstalling the Bergmann shroud with these new tins, I removed the original diverters that I previously installed. I want to start with a new baseline as these new tins and deflectors are going to affect the pressure in the shroud, and likely the air distribution as well. I have only driven the car about 20 minutes since finishing these mods (returning home from Scott's house yesterday). Right off the bat, I noticed that the 1/2 cylinder bank was running warmer than before and the 3/4 cylinder bank was running cooler. This was to be expected; given a fixed supply of air, cooling down one side will result in the other side warming up.  Cylinder #3 was the hottest cylinder :-k, but I think the reason for this is that the #3 injector is pissing fuel and running that cylinder rich (this was evident from the top-end tear down). Cylinder #4, which usually is the hottest, was running about 10 degrees warmer than cylinders 1 and 2 around 45 mph or less, and about 15-20 degrees warmer than 1/2 at 65 mph. Cylinder 1 and 2 were within 5 degrees of each other. So far, this appears to be a much better baseline to work with when I go back in to reinstall diverters inside the shroud.

These are just preliminary observations from very little driving, but the results are promising. I need to replace the #3 injector (or just get a new set from RC Engineering...these Siemens injectors are not too impressive) before I do any further development because the #3 CHT is simply not indicative of the tune of the cooling shroud. Once that is fixed, I'll begin concentrating on equalizing air flow between the two cylinder banks.

[JVance]

I like to keep it simple:

[fiatdude]

I have to take a picture of the lower tin for my ARPM siamese cylinders just so you can see how close u came to duplicating them

[JVance]

I'd love to see them. After hacking apart a set of "Cool Tins" trying to get them to fit the tall deck of my wasser/oxyboxer case, I fabricated something I thought was simple and do-able with the tools that I had available. And something that would be easy for me to modify if changes needed to be made in the future.

[DonPauter]

Jason,
early on I tried something similar with tins below the cylinders, really didn't seem to do much for head temps but I picked up an additional 10-15 degrees of oil temp which was more of a concern for me. As a result my Big Block has been running with no deflectors of any kind below the cylinders for the past 3-1/2 years .
   After decades of running around the Imperial sand dunes I've come to believe that cylinder cooling is more a result of a combination of incomming fuel charge and external air movement around them and given the fact that heat rises the uppermost area of the cylinder was the best point of attack in terms of extracting heat  it also seemed to me that the preheated overhead air was best despersed as rapidly as possible rather than captured and restricted by the addition of the close fitting sheetmetal around the lower quadrants of the cylinders. Other than mind set and the usual head and oil temp gaging I have no proof of this theory beyond a 3140 cc powerplant that has provided over 5 years of dependable service to date. Keep us posted with your project I feel we can all learn from our combined efforts.
                                                                          D P

[JVance]

Thanks for the info, Don.

These efforts are not so much trying to cool around the cylinders more evenly, but creating a restriction to direct more air over the cylinder heads. While I don't know how close your shroud fits around your cylinders and heads, this Bergmann shroud leaves large gaps around the cylinders, especially near where they meet the heads where the cooling fins on your cylinders are much smaller in diameter than the stock cylinder/fins. In a nutshell, there was a lot of air leaving this shroud that simply wasn't contacting any cooling fins at all. Plus, with the fan sitting closer to the 1/2 cylinder head, the 3/4 cylinder head did not receive as much airflow.

So far, I have not seen an increase in oil temps for my typical patterns of driving (my oil temps have pretty much ignored every effort I have made towards cylinder head cooling modifications). This latest modification has left the #3 cylinder the hottest out of all 4, but the 3/4 side is running closer in temps to the 1/2 side on average, which is much better than what I achieved using internal deflectors and no tin under the cylinders (shown below).  I suspect these trends are due to the added pressure in the shroud as compared to before, and air flowing towards paths of least resistance versus simply exiting the shroud in the direction the air was blown. On that note, I will add my center divider next week to see if I can bring the 1/2 and 3/4 cylinders closer in temp, but I need to think about what to do to equalize #3 and #4 again.

The air deflector in the center is biased towards the 1/2 side, splitting approximately 60% of the air towards the 3/4 side:




And I may leave off the deflector that splits the 3/4 side (the smaller one on the left), since that was previously installed to lower the temps on the #4 cylinder, which is no longer the hottest cylinder.

I'm going to keep pushing on this through the summer and see what progress I can make. The more I work with this shroud, the more I realize that there are serious design flaws that require more attention than I may be willing to give, or can reasonably address. Ultimately, I may end up designing a new base for the cooling fan that is centered on the case, and moves the fan as far backwards as the decklid will allow; this will probably require a modified crank pulley to align with the fan location. From there, I plan to mold a new shroud that has reduced plenum volume like the stock 911-shroud. I don't know if this would be any more successful, but aside from the fan itself, this Bergmann shroud uses absolutely none of the air-flow principles designed into the stock 911-shroud.