Worlds Fastest 36HP VW Challenge

[Rob R]

Here are the 130 mph club rules. I really wanted to run it this year but things didn't work out. I have a stock geared 4.12 trans that would be just right for the class. http://www.saltflats.com/I30%20Club.html

[landspeedracer]

rob   keep aiming downhill and you will hit the salt. i guarantee you! sorry you could not make it this year.

[madoski]

How about doing something along these lines only with 1600s, limit it to stock DP heads or something like that?  Something along the same lines as Form First is to Formula Vee.  Just a thought...parts may be easier to come by.

[landspeedracer]

madoski  it will work. even though they won't fit 36hp lsr rules, the 130 clubs offered by all 3 land speed racing bodies have 130 mph clubs that allow street legal bugs(and buses,and ghias,and t-3's, and fridolins)as long as they have h-rated tires(good to 140mph)and at least 3 point seat belt/harness combinations. follow rob r's link to usfra 130 club rules and see how easy it would be to race your street vw without having to build an all out race car.

[Tom Simon]

...and fridolins

wait just a minute, Fridolins? 

[Tom Simon]

How about doing something along these lines only with 1600s, limit it to stock DP heads or something like that? Something along the same lines as Form First is to Formula Vee. Just a thought...parts may be easier to come by.

The first step is to show up to some meets with acvws, run what you brung. Then petition SCTA to allow "Antique status" to the acvw engine. As I was saying above, these days all the small bore records are held by 4-valve overhead cam modern engines. Afford the acvw status like pre-1935 4 bangers or antique offenhauser midget engines like V4, V4F, and M and the VW community would get very interested, real fast, IMO. Check out this link, Steve  http://www.scta-bni.org/engine.htm

[madoski]

If I could do this in a street VW, I may be up for it.  I've been interested in this type of racing(?) for quite a while.  I actually purchased a SCTA-BNI rulebook a few years back.  It would be great to have a car that I could bracket race (street / strip car) and run at the dry lakes as well, I'm close enough to El Mirage to drive my car there and run it!  I guess I need to quit dreaming and get it together...

[bvilletom]

I built this motor for the 2005 Hot VW's Land Speed 36 HP Challenge. I ran the last speed meet of 2005 at Maxton, NC. in October with ECTA (East Coast Timing Assoc). This motor class if the one where the engine has to be a 36 er, look stock on the outside but you can do anything you want inside the motor. We're talking single 28 PIC carb, single port 36 heads. It is like an antique restrictor plate motor in theory. We used an unrestored 57 Oval sedan, stock with bumpers, functioning generator, a licensed street car. The classes are set up for real street cars so the Old speed cars can run without butchering up anything on the car.

We set the H/GSR record at 81.22 MPH for the standing mile. It turns 18.9 seconds at 68.1 MPH in the quarter mile. I only got three passes before they wouldn't let me run any longer since it was throwing oil out of the breather and catch can. I could have gone faster as I was learning where to shift for the best top end with the stroker motor. It did reasonably well for the first time out. Some things I did well and some were bad, like oil pump was too big and keeping the pressure relief open all the time resulting in severe oil leakage everywhere.

Below is the build sheet specs:
ENGINE FOR 36 HP CHALLENGE

•   Size: 1415cc 77 bore x 76 stroke 353cc per cylinder
•   Builder: Tom Bruch Systems, Cedar Rapids, IA
•   Case: 36 HP Modified for windage, boat tailed webs
                drilled for twelve oil drains and stroker clearance
•   Crank: 76 mm German stroker, polished 8 dowels
•   Rods: 36 HP Mod for clearance, polished & balanced
•   Cam: Erson #410 regrind with small shaft 290 degrees duration
•   Pistons: Nural modified for 2 mm pop-up and crankshaft clearance
•   Rings: Mahle iron
•   Flywheel: 180 mm – 8 dowels with Porsche gland nut
•   Cylinders: Stock iron 36 with spacers
•   Heads: 36 HP ported with Okrasa 30 mm intake valves, 30 degree
                seats and stock 28.5 mm exhaust valves
•   Compression: 9.11 to 1 CR
•   Ignition: 009 Bosch mechanical distributor – blue coil
•   Carburetor: 28 PCI highly modified stock carburetor flowing 62
•   CFM @10 inches H2O, F-Vee style
•   Manifold: Lightly ported stock
•   Oil Pump: Empi full flow 32 MM
•   Exhaust: Scat 1-1/2” merge collector street race with stinger
•   Special mods.: 12 volt conversion, cooling fan modified for cooling
                and low drag. Heads and induction set-up on a Super Flow 110 bench

This website explains the rules and classes:
www.burlyb.com

[landspeedracer]

hi madoski    the scta/bni rules are excellent guidelines, but unfortunately they do not offer a low key, low investment 130 club like the usfra, ecta and texas mile. thats why the 36 land speed challenge is focused on 130 club availability. also it lets folks on the east coast and mid west have a shot at competing without traveling clear across the country.

we hope to have word on a 1 mile race course in england soon so we can go "international" with the challenge.

[besserwisser]

Here are the specs on my 36hp stroker.

 25hp aluminum case
74mm welded dms crank
83mm vw pistons and cylinders
large end of rod is 36hp, small end 40hp thats right welded rods!
vw 36hp rockers welded to 1:1.25 ratio
original heads with 38,5mm intake 32 exh
camshaft is a swedish make by Nils Hedlund 284degrees
Camfollowers are 1600 standard and cro mo pushrods
dual 28pict bored to 32mm (very thin)

 Hope to be done to European bug in next summer
 Hans "Besserwisser" Landelius  Sweden

[madoski]

hi madoski    the scta/bni rules are excellent guidelines, but unfortunately they do not offer a low key, low investment 130 club like the usfra, ecta and texas mile. thats why the 36 land speed challenge is focused on 130 club availability. also it lets folks on the east coast and mid west have a shot at competing without traveling clear across the country.

we hope to have word on a 1 mile race course in england soon so we can go "international" with the challenge.

Sounds good!  All I've ever seen is the SCTA events at El Mirage.  I'll have to look into the 130 club a little more.

[landspeedracer]

hans   your 36er sounds great-do you particpate with the 25 & 36ers at bitburg> i am trying to contact them to find out more.

[landspeedracer]

craig & terry   i met the hammonds at bug in 32 last year. encourage them to participate. sounds like their 36er has potential. 1 problem, verts and cloth sunroof bugs needs a 4 point roll bar and 3 point seat belts. that may put them off but what a chapter to add to their verts history,running in land speed racing and seeing how fast their 36er is.

[landspeedracer]

jake   sounds like your putting together a really great 36er for someone.i  hope they join the "challengers" at one of the venues to see how it runs. have them hit www.burlyb.com for details.

[bvilletom]

Besserwisser:

Thank you for posting your 36 stroker specs.  It is very interesting to see how other people look at the 36HP challenge in engine building.  I used what I had lying around from the 60's.  My rods are actually too short to get the right ratio and the heads need a lot more work.  I think the potential of my engine in the sedan is probaly in the high 80's with the single 28 PICT.  I'm going to remake it into a dual carb motor this winter.

Are your cam followers 1600 VW or 1600 Porsche?  Did you box the welded rods?  Have you run this motor in a sedan to see how it feels?  I hope other people post some 36 engine specs, it is good for ideas.

Bville Tom

[besserwisser]

Hi again
The camfolowers are 1600 vw and the rods are welded to 5.3 lenght. No i havent run this motor but I did some testing in a previous motor with dual 28picts bored to 32. With dual springs I had a problem with camfollowers so thats why I´m going with 1600vw followers. The new motor will be 1620cc and I´m aiming for 85-90 horses.I could probably get more by raising the compression but I think the crank is to week.The reason for the older alucase is that it´s easier to weld and I think it is stronger.Welding rods and rockers that are forged is a piece of cake.The rockers were cut and welded back so the ratio went to 1-1.25. Both the rods and the rockers have been tested for strength. In the rods I put a long pipe in the small end and twisted it 180degrees and the rockers were hit by a big hammer in the lifting direction. So far so good. I will keep you posted ,we have a long winter of work ahead.

[Zach Gomulka]

Ive been reading this today, and now Ive got the 36hp itch too!

[Tom Simon]

I just talked with Tom Burch (sp?) this afternoon. They are real serious about keeping it low-buck and vintage high performance.

[bvilletom]

Here is a picture of Burly's cal-look 36 HP vintage hideaway turbo car at Bonneville Sep 2006.  This was taken after the storm cancelled the meet.

The second picture is of the motor of this car.  It is a bone stock 1192 cc 36 HP with a T-2 Sunbird turbo, Harley carb and a hand fabricated exhaust system.  This is the first version and we were just starting the R&D process which is still continuing.

Bville Tom

[Zach Gomulka]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=377671

[bendig]

Looking at Burly's engine sheet reminded me of what the FV guys do to those 28 PIC carbs. The venturi I looked at was foil thin. Lessons from the FV guys can probably be passed onto a 36hp build.

[The Ideaman]

There is a shop in Fresno that used to play with formula vee's.  I've heard stories of stretching the intakes with progressively larger steel balls and lots of air pressure over and over.  No wonder a formula vee engine is so expensive.

[landspeedracer]

ideaman   i have heard of the things you described. using techiniques rather than shelf parts is the goal of the 36hp land speed challenge.

bengt h   thats a neat looking denzel. looks like it could be made operational without a lot of problems. are you contemplating a build? how will you us the motor(36lsr?)? obviously,sweden has an active 36hp performance community.hopefully they will join this forum and share their thoughts. thanx for the pics.

al higdon  thanx for all the great photos. nothing is easier to understand than visual communication.you also must be deeply involved in the early bug high performance world. i'm a newbie but learning lots from you and others on this forum. please keep it coming.

rays pepco  a pepco is the charger that powered dick beiths worlds fastest 36hp bug(still)back in 1961. it's good to see a good photo of the setup. ray, if you are out their, join in and tell us more!

the denzel(old speed)brochure gives a top speed of 88.55 miles per hour. does anyone have info on when, where amd who set that speed. i would like to obtain the facts for the 36hp challenge and for my volkswagen(all  vw's)land speed racing history files(any photos or documents-even copies you can share would be greatly appreciated).

besserwisser the engine you desribed sounds very unique(again lots of thought and skill and less off the shelf parts).even your test procedures for the rods sounds good but how many did you have to sacrifice testing before you felt comfortable? are you  in the u.s. or europe? their is a lot of 25/36hp activity across the pond.hopefully we will hear more from you.

burly

[Craig Merrow]

Some really cool stuff here!  Was reading over the specs on the motors, really impressed with what you have done.  Something that I saw in a book or magazine years ago was someone building their own intake manifold by making it an upside-down Y shape for better air/fuel flow through the manifold over the T-shape of the OEM ones. 

[besserwisser]

Just got back from the Swedish Dyno-day where Bengt Holmen dunoed his 1620 with okrasa heads and 32mm solex carbs. Very impressive figures 80 horses and very high tourqe figures. Bengts motor is not built for pure racing so there is still room for more power with bigger carbs and different manifolds. Who will be the first one to break the 100hp on a na 30horse?

[Zach Gomulka]

Didnt Porsche "soup up" a 25hp engine in the late 40's, early 50's that made 70hp?

[bo]

is their an age restriction on the cars for this comp? also are they doing this next year

[axm48ida]

I what one of 36 hp turbo kits!! That be a kick putting around a vintage meet with a stock exhaust
showing at the arpon.

[bo]

thats a nice car you got there tom

[landspeedracer]

Nope. No age restrictions on the year of Beetle you run, just that it be a Beetle with stock body trim,fenders, bumpers, etc. The bug Tom and I race(and drive on the street-afterall, 36er's are only so fast!)is a 69 I.R.S. type 1 featuring a stock Rancho rebuilt trans with the only change being a 4:37 to 1 ring and pinion to match the stock 36hp tranny ratios for respectable acceleration.

More details and some unbelievable photos on the 36 Turbo bug can be seen in the current(December 2006)issue of VolksWorld Magazine now in the racks at your local Barnes & Noble,Borders,Hastins,etc.They did a nice 5 page article on the car at this years World of Speed out on the Bonneville Salt Flats.Check it out.

The 2007 National 36Hp Land Speed Challenge guidelines will soon be on line. If anybody would like details please let me know.

Burly

[landspeedracer]

2007 National 36HP Land Speed Challenge rules and info will be available soon, complete with 2007 race dates. Will let you know as soon as posted.

Burly

[bo]

i think i got an idea for my motor for this comp im thinkin twin turbo through one 750cfm carb! or can we do that? i thought it would be cool since i got some turbos lying around

[landspeedracer]

2007 NATIONAL 36hp LAND SPEED RACING guidelines are now posted at burlyb.com complete with a racing and location schedule(sure wish we had a European venue-hear that Good Thunder!) and yes, their is a class for wild twin turbos. There is "stone stock", dual (old) carb, old supercharger and "New Age" where all the modern stuff except Nitrous can be thrown at it! Let you imagination run wild in this run what you brung fun challenge.

And new this year are very relaxed safety regulations since these challengers will be hard put to hit 100 miles per hour(the record 101 mph was set clear back in 1961!).

If you need more details, contact me at the email address shown on the web site and I will be glad to respond.

Burly

[landspeedracer]

The 36hp National Land Speed Challenge web site is buryb.com. sorry I left that off.

Burly

[Farmer]

Hey Besserwisser. Very interesting with the welding of the rockers. I will definitely look into that with my 36 hp project.
And yes, I saw and heard that engine Roman is referring to, at JPM´s dynoday last year. Very impressing piece of work, which also gave me an idea or two to check out.
My project is not exactly in the landspeed record zone. more like a larger more powerfull time correct engine.

I decided to order a 76 mm semi fullcircle stroker crank from Old man Bob Demello. Full circle for reinforcing the webs of that crank. 912 rod journals.
Cam is not decided yet.  But it will be something in the 234 degr. @ 0,050" range. Most likely split dur.- The conversion to newer T1 lifters might need to be looked into.
Bore neither. But I have been looking at some Nissan pistons that are 78 mm and has just about the correct pin height. I have also been looking at 83 mm Porsche pistons/cylinders. But I need to find a size that the heads will support. So it will most likely be 78 mm Nissan pistons.
Heads will be heavily modified late model 36 hp. I will have them welded up and then install 35 / 32 mm valves. The intake side actually leaves enough space to machine it to accept a 15/1600 sgl. port size intake. But the ports need a lot of work.
Carburettor will be modified 32 mm Solex from a type 3. Most likely with a 34 mm throttle body.
Exhaust. I thought of modifying a 356 75 hp muffler. doesnt seem to be that difficult to do.

Ultimately this should (hopefully) result in a healthy approx. 70 hp street engine, with sufficient torque to keep up with modern traffic on the freeway. And still look almost like they did 35 - 40 years ago.
Time will tell.
T