Worlds Fastest 36HP VW Challenge

[Brian Watts]

Just stumbled across this. 

Anyone on here doing the challenge?

http://www.burlyb.com/

[Zach Gomulka]

You get a "1961 Bug trophy" for winning- dont they know that '61 had a 40 horse?!

[Tom Simon]

that's cool, thanks!

The entries in 1960 with a dual carb 56 bug, '61 same bug with a Pepco (I thought it was a bicycle chain-driven Judson?), and in '63 in a (I belive) "pumpkin seed" streamliner all belong to a local guy I know, Dick Beith. Dick went on to campaign an Indy car team with Driver's George Fulmer, Bill Simpson, and a few others. More recently he raced Bonneville as late as '94 with a BBC powered FWD streamliner. I was just talking to Dick's son last night looking at some old Indycar pics and talking about Bonneville... I just sent him the the link

from the rules: no cc or displacement limits, stock case, stock 36 or Okrasa heads or replica only allowed (whatever replica means?)  no 1200 or 1600 heads!  

Sounds like fun, but...  I'm not so sure how easy it would be to get a 36horse head to flow any numbers without a TON of work, or to find a couple sets of Okrasa heads from which to work from without spending the family fortune. or to get 36hp crank to hold up. A cast iron Bud Whitfeild 36horse stoker isn't the answer either, even if you could find one. Finding decent parts to work with or hold up to record setting power couldn't be easy. I could see some unlimited bucks guy having all sorts of custom stuff made up and having a 2liter 36horse "rules motor" that cost $12k to build, and raising the record bar out of reach for most guys in the class.

It still sounds like a ton of fun, though. Are the guys promoting this class the same Burley guys who were selling body kits 20 years ago?
 

[Zach Gomulka]

My buddy has a 69.5mm stroker EMPI crank for a 36er for sale, anyone wanna give it a shot??

[Tom Simon]

What is a crank like that worth, Zack? I'm thinking it's Okrasa and worth a bunch

I wonder if you can you sqeeze an 84 stroke into a 36horse case? Smaller Crower Honda journal rods, all 1600 or heck, T4 mains if the case will support it !

Heck, if you're gunna go, GO BIG! 

[JVance]

Hmmm...moldex crank with thick cheeks and thin rod journals...that might eliminate all crank flex, so you could hypothetically have a case made out of butter and it will still won't pound out

[Bruce Tweddle]

My buddy has a 69.5mm stroker EMPI crank for a 36er for sale,

The 356/912 crank is a drop-in and a longer stroke.  Cheaper than an EMPI crank too.

[Zach Gomulka]

The 356/912 crank is a drop-in and a longer stroke. Cheaper than an EMPI crank too.

Shhhhhh Bruce!! Tryin to make a sale here!!!

What is a crank like that worth, Zack? I'm thinking it's Okrasa and worth a bunch

Ive seen a couple for sale in the $900 range. This is a non c/w version, and hasnt been checked out yet since I found it. Joe Ruiz aka Mr. Okrasa is having is own cranks made, I think they are 70mm with full circle c/w- $995.
Not cheap, thats for sure!

[Tom Simon]

The more I look at it, with those rather vague rules, a Smokey Yunick wannabe could have LOTS of fun!

Any old timers here on the CLF remember the "weak links" in building the 1100cc 36horse?  They break cranks, check. The lifters and pushrods are one-and-the-same and whimpy, a challenge, got that. The heads flow like they should be on a Briggs & Station 5horse, understood.

Random thoughts...
Oil passages in the case won't support the volume needed for high rpm. of course the heads won't flow enough to support high rpm, particularly if you build a big displacement engine.
Is the old material (cases and heads made from) Weldable? Mush and therefore junk?

Heads: So Okrasa was a good 36er head in it's day, complete with dual port dual carb manifolds to boot. But are nothing compared to a stock 1600 dp T1 head. They are also getting rare therefore expensive. NOS VW 36er heads can't be cheap either, and I'm not sure you could slide a nickle through the tiny port. Do you weld the heck out of a set of used-but-not-used-up OEM 36er heads, move the valves over, support the combustion chambers somehow so you can use big barrels and pistons?

Bruce pointed to an inexpensive crank, or EMPI
JE will make you any piston you want, but bore size will be limited to stud pattern (movable?..) but ultimately bore center distance limits bore size, just like a T-1.

Could you convert the lifter bores to the small diameter 356 or 912?

Do cam blanks interchange? Cam gears? oil pump?

[Brian Watts]

Glad you guys found this as interesting in possibilites as I did.

Pauter or Autocraft 36HP case is just around the corner for sure LMAO!!!

Love to see at least 10 to 20 VWs invade Bonneville to challenge this and run all week.

Never been, but plan to get to Bonneville someday.

Anyone gone lately, is there a decent amount of VWs running there?

[Tom Simon]

Never been, but plan to get to Bonneville someday.

Anyone gone lately, is there a decent amount of VWs running there?

You need to go!

I started a thread during speedweek this past August, use the search function, enter "Bonneville"

Sadly there are only a few VW's still in Land Speed Racing. Right now all of the real small bore classes are dominated by cars with modern motorcycle engines. GM has developed the 4-banger Ecotec to make a conservative 1000hp from 2 liters, they teamed up with Alex Xedias' SoCal Speedshops guys to just smash some records. The Hudson Boys have been taking a bunch of small displacement records in the stock body classes.

It would be nice to see SCTA recognize acvw's as a vintage engine like they do with the flathead fords and antique offenhauser 4-banger midget engines.

If you hop on a plane this afternoon, you can catch the last two days of the SCTA World Finals meet going on right now

[Brian Watts]

Tom,

Thanks for the update and background. I definatly want to go and will someday soon. After Worlds Fastest Indian I really got the itch to go.

I can't believe that VW aircooled engines are reconizedas a vintage engine like the flathead.

Would make a huge difference in the VW attenence  at their events if they didn't have to go against GMs Billions $$$$$$$ in development!!

If Flatheads had to fo that you wouldn't see them anymore either.

Can make this year but maybe next!!

[Craig Merrow]

Ask Terry Gaudet about the 36'er in Steve Hammond's '53 'vert...356 crank, Harley Davidson pistons, dual 28 Solex carbs (PCI? I think).  It was featured in the December 2003 HVW.  I've driven it, it's a nice ride and has a nice powerband.

[Tom Simon]

After Worlds Fastest Indian I really got the itch to go.

In the worlds of a late friend of mine "then go, don't wait..."

I heard this year was crazy at August Speedweek... there are othr events put on for the slower cars, but the SCTA events are the ones to go to. Both SCTA Bonneville events were rained out last year, couple that with the Fastest Indian movie and all of the sudden Bonneville Speedweek becomes a "must attend" event for 2006 I guess. I just watched that movie for the second time this Tuesday night at a friend's house... Wednesday night another friend recalled standing next to Burt Munroe and his bike at Bonneville back in '67 or '68.  I almost decided to blow off work this week and drive the 9 hours to Wendover     I've been infected with salt fever since my first trip in 2002

[Jake Raby]

I have been assisting with one of these builds... The result of a lot of development has been the strngest 36HP engine I have ever seen! Its the most fun I have had in a LONG time!

[larry mckenzie]

I have raced at Bonneville and even set a record (BFXF/Modified roadster)! It is a must see! Speedweek is the second week in August.
 I have a friend who put a Pepco supercharger on his 36er and drove it to Solvang. That thing really puts out some HP and he just installed it on an old used engine. Imagine if it was on a stroked big bore engine with Denzel heads? You can see photos of the car on the samba.

[Matt Schlicht]

I was in Cedar Rapids Iowa one day, on my way home from Menards (like home depot or lowes) and I see a blue beetle coming toward me that I had not seen before. It gets to the stop light and it has Utah plates.  Here in Iowa we rarely see the real beetle so I rolled down the window in the mini van to listen and it was running rough.  I decided to follow the beetle and  it pulls into a bank lot and I am not far behind. The driver gets out, older man turns out to be 70 something, and lifts the deck lid and I see a 36 hp case with a turbo. I was confused! I pulled up and introduced myself and said that I was a beetle nut and he told me that the car was a salt flat car. I was shocked. He is Tom Burch form Cedar Rapids Iowa, record holder for the H-GRS 36 hp class. Check the Hot VW's record list.Tom ran a vw and porche repair shop until he was diagnosed with cancer.  He is fine now. He told me to stop by his home sometime. I'm thinking I have to see his collection.  Unbelievable guy, 3 or 4 old porches, a turbo geo metro with more gauges than the space shuttle. I can't remember who owns the beetle but they were going to run it again in mid September on the flats. I need to get in touch with him again.  

[Bruce Tweddle]

Do cam blanks interchange? Cam gears? oil pump?

Cam gears are interchangeable with 1600 gears, so all the aftermarket straight cuts work.  But you mightn't need them.  36 gears have half the helix of a 1600.

[Tom Simon]

I have been assisting with one of these builds... The result of a lot of development has been the strngest 36HP engine I have ever seen! Its the most fun I have had in a LONG time!

What challenges kept you awake at night starring at the ceiling? You don't have to give away the secrets, I'm just wondering what problems a guy might have to solve and would it be possible to build an 8000rpm 2-liter...

[Tom H.]

stock case with plates bolted to the sides via the original head stud pattern. Then a different head stud pattern allowing bigger barrels. That *may* allow the use of a 1600 architecture based head and its wider bore centers..........

just a thought....

[Rick Meredith]

I have been assisting with one of these builds... The result of a lot of development has been the strngest 36HP engine I have ever seen! Its the most fun I have had in a LONG time!

Hey Jake... did ya mean strangest or strongest 36HP???   

They're only a vowel apart! 

[Rick Meredith]

I have been assisting with one of these builds... The result of a lot of development has been the strngest 36HP engine I have ever seen! Its the most fun I have had in a LONG time!

Hey Jake... did ya mean strangest or strongest 36HP???   

They're only a vowel apart! 

[Roman]

There are two guys in Sweden that builds high performance 34hp engines. They have made their own regulations what you should use and wha not and one of ite criterias is 6V!
One uses Porsche 74 mm crank, modified Porsche 83 mm cylindrar, JE pistons and a custom cam with a Swedish Hedlund cam from the 60's as a template.

The other guy uses a custom made DMS stroker crank with home made ratio rockers and bigger cylinders (early 1500 if I am correct..) etc.
I got a ride a couple of years ago in the later and i deinitely hauls @ss!

[Tom Simon]

stock case with plates bolted to the sides via the original head stud pattern. Then a different head stud pattern allowing bigger barrels. That *may* allow the use of a 1600 architecture based head and its wider bore centers..........

just a thought....

Thinking out loud again....Changing bore centers would likely be outside the box... but plating the case to move out the stud pattern sounds good. The "performance bottleneck" is clearly the heads, and the rules are pretty explicit about which ones you will use. case and point, it is possible to build a 2387 T1 using stock single-port heads... all you'd have is a big displacement turd that could get out of it's own way, the ports are too small to support cylinder filling at high rpm.  Build the heads first then the rest of the engine around them  Hmmm....   who's got a cheap set of Okrasa 36 horse heads for sale?

[James2]

I got a 36er in my core pile.  Might go dig it out.

[Terry Gaudet]

Steve Hammond's hot rod 36er is quite the work of art.  Steve Daniels from Maine helped Mr. Hammond build this unique motor.  Starting with a 356 crank and rods, they matched up a set of Harley Davidson pistons and bored out the cylinders.  The case has some secret work to it that i'm not at liberty to disclose.  The heads were done at Bergs and cost more than most of the performance heads sold these days.  They were able to fit 35X32 stainless valves, cut down the stem size to fit in the stock guides and install dual springs.  Did some fancy work with lifters and push rods.  They even made intake manifolds to setup dual 28PCI carbs and built one off billet aluminium linkage using roller bearings.  I have never driven the car but I am told it's like driving a 1600 with some bolt ons. 

[James2]

Remove this   "not trying to slam the guy, but what's the point?"

add this         " wow!, that's a hardcore 36hp racer"

[JVance]

not trying to slam the guy, but what's the point?

The challenge involved.

How about, "what's the point of building an engine for the Dyno Contest?" The rules are fairly restricted; they don't fit my definition of a "street engine," or even a "daily driver" for that matter (puhleeeeze! No EFI...No roller cam? Why not limit it to a 34 Pict-3 carb while you're at it). Get it? There's a challenge in trying to do something unique...trying to accomplish something under restricted constraints. Heck, for the time and money invested in the few 8 and 9 second VWs, you could easily be in the 7's or quicker on a domestic or import platform. So, were you really interested in what the point was?

[James2]

Ignore me, I'm just in a foul mood.  Wal mart made me mad as hell and I guess I'm just taking out on others.

Had to wait three hours for two tires.

[JVance]

Ignore me, I'm just in a foul mood. Wal mart made me mad as hell and I guess I'm just taking out on others.

Had to wait three hours for two tires.

You should've picked up a super-sized bottle of Midol while you were there

[Matt Schlicht]

not trying to slam the guy, but what's the point?

BECAUSE WE ARE ABOUT VW'S!  No one car group has what the VW air cooled group has! With little to no no help from VW.

[James2]

Ignore me, I'm just in a foul mood.  Wal mart made me mad as hell and I guess I'm just taking out on others.

Had to wait three hours for two tires

[landspeedracer]

from the horses mouth to california kid,tom,jake,matt:

thanx for helping bring 36hp lsr to the masses.it's new,easy and cheap and after being made aware of the forum and reading the posts i thought i should answer some of the questions. yes, i am the burly who built ford hoods and tops for bugs before the millenium. for tom, dick beith is to 36 land speed racing what bruce meyers is to buggies. please reinforce that on your next visit with him,even though i know he's long past that part of his life.

on mega $ 36ers,we figure know one in their right mind will do a big buck motor just for and old trophy(hey,1961 trophies are what i acquired and 36ers were still the modified king!).even in the new ss(stone stock)class, a stock air cleaner and muffler will negate any big bore investment so ingenius folks with time to think and apply will be the performers.

thats exactly what my partner tom(cedar rapids ia)is doing. our 2006 turbo 36er was built with stock bore,stock crank,stock(but ported)heads featuring stock size valves.at bonneville 3 weeks ago it didn't run perfect but still went 83mph and will run stronger next spring. it runs in the "new age" class and is spinning at 5500 rpms at the end of the standing mile.

california is right, the best spectator meet is the august speedweek,but only fully race prepped vws run their along with over 500 other racers and tons of street rod tourists.it is unlike any race event in the world. but 36er can lsr race in 130 clubs at
binneville in sept,maxton nc throughout the year and the texas mile at least twice with just good street cars.

matt,be sure to take tom up on his offer and visit. you will like this knowledgeable,friendly gentleman.he also told me of your
chance meeting and it was fun to hear your tale.

jake,when will your friend be attending?keep us posted.

for 2007,watch www.burlyb.com for info on the new stone stock(ss)class(current record is 66 mph)and relaxed tire and seat belt rules for 36hp entries only. i will get them posted as soon as i figure out how(i am new to the puter!)

again, thanx for your interest.      burly

[Tom Simon]

Hey Burly, thanks for jumping onto the forum and giving us the straight scoop from the horses mouth. Don't be discouraged if a few guys can't get behind a high perf 36er, I sure would like to actually make a few passes on the salt one day, and prefer it be vw powered.

That is a real cool way to have a class within a class. Are the 130mph guys done for the year? Do they run at El Mirage?

Maybe someday SCTA will deem the aircooled engine as "antique" and give a new engine designation for air-cooled VW power. Then guys wouldn't have to try to compete with modern 4-valve overhead cam engines with our 1930's technology.

Could you tell us a little more about the other orginization (130mph club?) that you guys run with that doesn't require the same rollcage and tires that SCTA does for their meets? Also, I don't know much about the short course at the SCTA events.

Keep up the good work and welcome to the CLF

[Chap]

I've been following this for some time - It's pretty cool stuff. I've been trying to plan a trip to the Texas Mile but just haven't made time. There aren't very many people that specialize in building 36hp motors out there. Does anyone have an opinion on who the best 36hp builders are?