What temperature does YOUR motor run best at?

[65bug]

Good Morning,
         You know, it seems my 2165 runs best about 5 minutes in after start up in the morning. I am going to get some numbers today with my temp gun and I want to install a cyl. head temp gauge.
          How about your motor?
       

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

My local track had a new test-n-tune night this Summer, and one evening I was able to make 16 passes. I had a period were the car would go one speed/E.T. for a few passes, go quicker for a few passes, then slow back down for a few passes. I took a temp gun with me the next week, and from cold to about 170, the car would react one way. From 170 to 190 it would go consistantly faster, then once it got above 190 it would consistantly go slower, up to when it topped out about 205. All the times in a "group" were fairly consistant, but there was about a tenth of a second difference between the fast times, and slow times. This was reading the temps from the case by the distributor, and the oil filter on a full flow mount in the rear fenderwell. So in my case 170 to 190 it seemed to run the best by the way I was getting my temp. readings.

[65bug]

Thats really interesting to know. I too have a infrared temp gun as well and am going to take some tests tomorrow morning.
   My motor just seems to be more responsive and crisp when it's cooler.
    I am running 9.7-1 compression on 89 octane regular unleaded.
    Would that fancy Porsche fan shroud make it run cooler longer, providing more airflow?
     What about a remote oil cooler/w thermostat controlled fan?
      I have no experience with either, and may not need either. Just curious if changing the regular oil temp to a max of say 190 would make the motor run more efficiently.
     
   

[John P]

Good question. As long as the oil temp runs consistently below 220, I wouldn't bother investing money or time in it, as I can't imagine that it would make a noteworthy difference (aside from at the track, as noted above).

I also wouldn't want my oil temperature to be consistently below 170-180 degrees (from an engine wear standpoint). A lot of guys brag, "It's great - my oil temp never gets above 160, even on a hot summer day!" Dude, if that's your peak oil temperature during the summer, it's not great.

Head temps are a separate story, which I don't have any personal insight into.

I bet you that Jake has some insight on this, given his extensive engine dyno testing.

My 1.5 cents.

J

[ALB]

   My motor just seems to be more responsive and crisp when it's cooler.
       

Gene Berg used to say that an if an engine runs better before it fully warms up it could be a little rich, and once it gets warm it can't use all the fuel the carbs are providing. It's not high tech, but it shows you're attention to detail. Have you tried going a step smaller with the jets?

[65bug]

John P,
     Thank you for your input and help. Should be another warm day here in So. Ca. so I will get some numbers and post.
     This motor has never put out even close to the heat my old rebuilt 1600 motor did!! Not even close!
     Of course, I used all new parts on the build of this motor.
Thanks!
     

[65bug]

ALB,
      Great tip! Thank you. I tuned with a AR1 and I average around 14.6 I think it was. I wanted it running a little on the rich side. Maybe I can move the AF screws a half turn for each barrel and see how she does?

[JVance]

   Would that fancy Porsche fan shroud make it run cooler longer, providing more airflow?

It would make half of your engine run cooler.
It has no problem keeping the 1/2 cylinder head very cool; the 3/4 cylinder head will run anywhere from 20 to 50 degrees hotter (or more). I wouldn't bother unless you buy a 4-channel thermocouple and plan to do extensive work inside of the shroud to equalize the airflow across all 4 cylinders (this is neither intuitive or easy; mostly trial and error).

Stick with the stock cooling.

[rossi46]

Mine runs at 195 F all day and at 70-75mph on the highway, tuned 2110cc

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

Good question. As long as the oil temp runs consistently below 220, I wouldn't bother investing money or time in it, as I can't imagine that it would make a noteworthy difference (aside from at the track, as noted above).

Head temps are a separate story, which I don't have any personal insight into.

I bet you that Jake has some insight on this, given his extensive engine dyno testing.

Yeah, as far as street driving, my car behaves about the same from the 170 to 205 temps. 205 is a pucker factor for me, but I once read a post from Jake having racing engines "live" with racing oil at 280-300 degrees as long as they kept proper pressure.

Jake has also noted many times that oil temps. alone are not a good way to monitor overall engine temperature. Both head, and oil temps. would be best if you're really looking to gather info on what your engine is doing. It sticks in my mind that head temps range from 270 to maybe 330, but I could be wrong. Anyone have more info on head temps.?

[Jake Raby]

Oil temperature is oil temperature, not engine temperature.

I have lots of data, the most recent is from our 1832cc F Production race engine that I tested prior to this past weekend'd championship race. I was testing a new formulation of my "Venom Snake Oil" and really had an eye opening experience.

I'll share tomorrow if I have time.

[65bug]

Thanks EVERYONE,
        Did not get a chance to run my car at all today. Typical Monday! Dead tired from the weekend. I am finally on the home stretch on my room addition. Having to hang all the 5/8 drywall myself. Man, the drywall is heavy!!!!
      After reading some of the comments, I am thinking of getting me some gauges.
      Berg kinda drilled it in my head that they where useless and that their oil temp dipstick sensor was the way to go.
      However, I am thinking even if the gauges are not dead accurate, but consistent, I will be happy!!
     So, what do you guys think? VDO? Also, I think I want to get rid of my monster tach for a smaller unit that will give me some more room.
     So, a head temp, oil temp, and oil pressure?
 Thanks, I will try and post my numbers tomorrow.

[fifty-five]

I run auto meter. No problems from them. Oil pressure, oil temp, boost, need to get a head temp.

[neil68]

Good Morning,
         You know, it seems my 2165 runs best about 5 minutes in after start up in the morning. I am going to get some numbers today with my temp gun and I want to install a cyl. head temp gauge.
          How about your motor?
       

As has been pointed out on several forums, the typical VDO spark plug temp sender gives an inaccurate temp...due to being seated on the spark plug.  It's not really measuring head temperature.  In my experience, oil temps are more useful on a Type 1 engine, such as yours...a good range is 190-210 with surges to 220-230 are normal.  That's what I have on my motors.  If you are using a stock VW head or a similar 044, then you shouldn't have too many issues, if the engine is tuned properly.

[JVance]

As has been pointed out on several forums, the typical VDO spark plug temp sender gives an inaccurate temp...due to being seated on the spark plug. 

No, the VDO head temp gauge is generally considered to be not accurate because it is not temperature-compensated to the ambient air.

It's not really measuring head temperature.

It's measuring the closest thing to the combustion chamber that you can measure. 'Under the spark-plug' is the universal standard for cylinder head temp, automotive or aviation.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

Best running motor?

For my drag motor. Oil must be 140-150F. Heads as cold as possible.
They she really lays down a #.

For street driving my Turbo sedan. I have found oil temps in the 170-190F range are the best.
If it's hotter than that, I stay out of boost as the octane demands increse to keep detonation away.

I "sort of "agree with what Jake says.
Oil temps do not read head temp directly.... But they are linked very closely.
After all, there is large amounts of oil being pumped to the head (where it picks up lots of heat) and then returning to the sump to be pumped and then cooled before returning to the head (and everywhere else) again.
The whole inside of the motor is getting sprayed with oil all the time. So it is natural to assume that things will become "soaked" temp wise. You may see some differences (heads will always be hotter than the oil), but as long as oil is flowing, those diffences will work to equilibrate out. Basic laws of thermodynamics.

I am curious to see what Jake's resluts are.

I read oil temp as "engine temp". If she's running hot, it's time to slow down or park for a while. (or re-think the cooling strategies for the application).

I also use my ear to tell me how the heads are doing.
If I can hear more than the normal valve clatter, then I know she's hot.

[jgerock]

My engine runs very well around the 190 deg. F mark on my VDO oil temp. gauge.
Sending unit is in the blockoff plate at the rear of the case (Type 3 dipstick mount).

So far, the hottest measurement I have seen has been about 215 deg. F on a hot summer day in traffic.   The stock VW cooling system works really well, especially when a full flow filter and sump are added to the dog-house setup.



I hadn't noticed these temperature markings on the stock thermostat before.

[65bug]

Hi Guys,
  Well, got to take my VW on about a 23 mile jaunt this morning each way on the freeway! I figured this would be a good test to get some oil temp. reading and test out the new front end w/ disk brakes on the freeway.
     After getting off the freeway I pulled over to test with the IR Temp gun right away.
      With outside temp around 70 degrees my Fram oil filter gave me a reading of 175-180. My Berg sump was exactly the same with a 175-180. Case temp was the same as well!
      This was after running for about 20 minutes from speeds of 60-85 mph.
      This motor is 9.7-1 compression on 87 octane pump gas. New Mexi Steve Timms Stage 2 heads.
      I will test more later today in higher outside temps.

[bowen71]

Sound like its good.  I am surprised that it will run that well on 87 octane fuel mine needs 91 octane to run good.  With Cali gas 87 octane sucks.

I run mine everyday on the freeway for about 15 miles @ speeds of 60-85 and I stay between 180-200 no matter what the temp is outside (45-110*) It just takes longer to warm up when its colder.

Mine runs the stongest around 160-170.

2110
1.4 rockers
FK-8
8.2:1 CR
42x37.5 DRD L6 heads
44 IDF's
009 with MSD 6A triggered by pertronix
Max advance 30* initial 8.5*
72 plate oil cooler with 10" fan set to come on @ 180* off @ 135*
external oil filter with Geers 1/2 quart filter 0 bypass

[65bug]

bowen71,
     Thanks! Yea, it was on the cool side this morning though. A few weeks ago we had a weekend that was miserable hot, and it ran great as well.
      I know I am a little rich on the AF mixture. Curious if thats why it's running cooler with no problems on the 87 octane???
      Also, the car was squirley  on the 91 this morning. It was a bit windy and the 91 has those big grooves all over it. No way in hell would I want to be on a motorcycle on that dam freeway!!! I see em all the time though on there.
      Oh, by the way that's Sam's Club 87 I am putting in there...........lol

[bowen71]

I have had the hardest time with mine.  To much fuel down low not enough up high.  It seems to lean out on the freeway but if I jet it up then the MPG's go to about 10 MPG. 

If I lean it out at an idle then it gets hot and runs like crap.  I can not seem to get these carbs right.

I just deal with them the way they are.  Its hard to find someone who will help me tune them for a daily driver.  Most can get them to run like a scalded ape but not around town unless I want 8-10 MPG.

I get about 17 MPG which is not bad but I have gotten upwards of 25MPG at one time but it didnt run good in town.

Good luck with yours.

[65bug]

bowen,
       I run 48 DRLA'S and had to learn from the guys on here alot! Mark Harney really helped me out over the phone. Thanks Mark!
       Other guys on here as well.
      The LM1 really helped me dial them in. Do you have access to one?
       My motor idles at about 850. I still think I could tune more and better. Maybe I will take it and have it put on a dyno later.
       I am running 40 vents too. I would like to get some 38 vents to try. I tried 36
       
     

[bowen71]

      The LM1 really helped me dial them in. Do you have access to one?     
     

I do not have one but I just read a post that may give me a work around read this and tell me what you think

The way *I* do it is with the help of an O2 sensor. You weld in a bung for an O2 sensor in the exhaust pipe just after the collector (so the sensor sees the gases from all 4 cylinders).

The easy way is to use a wideband O2 setup, but a regular narrow band will work fine too if you are at least in the ballpark and not WAAAAAY off.

You do need a heated O2 sensor. (3 or 4 wire). Don't bother trying a non-heated one, the collector is too far from teh heads and the gases cool off too much. The sensor needs to get hot before the readings are reliable.

If you don't want to spend money on a commercial kit, you can buy just the bung, a heated O2 sensor and you're good to go. Wire the sensor in, and use a digital voltmeter to read the signal from the signal wire. You are looking at the millivolt scale, the readings would be anywhere between 200mV (super lean) to just over 1V. (too rich). Your target is to stay between 750 and 850mV more or less. Run an extension wire to the cabin so you can read the signal from the driver's seat, then find a lonely road with no traffic so you can test the settings under load, while driving. (Steady throttle).

[65bug]

bowen,
  If your close to me, you can get a bung welded in and come over and use mine!
  It does however sound like that may work. I like mine with numbers though!
  Do you have a CFM snail cage?

[maui]

I run aluminum P/Rs and tune the carbs at a good running temp for me[ about 190-210] and it runs good to go and idle good hot or cold and start on a dime and idle after 10 seconds. All good.