W 120 and turbo

[mrmut]

 
Hi I have a dilemma.
W 120
rods 311 light
flywheel light 4,5kg
1,1:1 Rocker or 1,25:1
piston 340g
head 040 ported
40x36 dual springs
T3-trim50 A/R42
SU 45 or 40dcoe
I am building a 1600 turbo , which will be over Rpm this engine and max RPM

[67VDUBYA]

Stock Un balanced Crank? Whats your compressin ratio? It'll prob run good and with 1.1 rocker I doubt it'd pull past 6000 rpm . It will probably be a fun little motor  if it's a counterweighted crank you can wing it to 6000 rpms with no problems. I'd stick with a stock weight flywheel itll spool up a little faster

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

67 VDub.. Why do you think it won't pull past 6,000rpm.
IMO...That cam will allow the motor to pull to 7,000rpm as long as the flow can keep up. Heads sound big enough to me.
It will just have no bottom end at all. Only 3,500rpm and up.

I use the W-120 cam in turbo builds often. The make a good all around cam for big displacement motors. Pulls to 7K on those larger motors easily.

[67VDUBYA]

with the su carb i wouldnt think it would i know 40x35 and a 120 cam works good thats what i ran on my 1915 turbo motor

[mrmut]

Well do not have SU carb
I am available 40 DCOE 2-barrels, and I have 4A1 4-barrels
What would suit to achieve effective 7000 rpm.
In Macedonia I can not find Holly and usually has Weber.

[67VDUBYA]

why worry about more rpm? the less rpm the better if the acheives the power youre after. dont go too fat on the Header to spool fast as you can . and a 2 barrel sidraft carb would work good. I ran 40x 35 steve tims heads with a w120 cam 1.1 rockers and 8.1 c/r  and a little t3 turbo on my 1915 with a 15/8 header it spooled fast and made awesome power to 6000 Rpm i would have needed a bigger turbo to get more power past 6000 but it made plenty. this was with a holley 500 two barrel

[mrmut]

why worry about more rpm? the less rpm the better if the acheives the power youre after. dont go too fat on the Header to spool fast as you can . and a 2 barrel sidraft carb would work good. I ran 40x 35 steve tims heads with a w120 cam 1.1 rockers and 8.1 c/r  and a little t3 turbo on my 1915 with a 15/8 header it spooled fast and made awesome power to 6000 Rpm i would have needed a bigger turbo to get more power past 6000 but it made plenty. this was with a holley 500 two barrel

According to you how this combination achieves the 1/4mile

[martin]

RPM is good, lugging a motor is what breaks parts.

[Meandean]

If you are building a 1600cc engine with a stock non-counterbalanced crankshaft you had better red-line it at 5500 rpm and only do that occasionally - otherwise you will beat out your center main bearing in a couple thousand kilometers.  

Also, if you are not going to exceed 5500 rpm you do not need over-sized valves and porting - doing so will raise the rpm band to about 7000 rpm and narrow the power band considerably.  The engine you describe with an Engle 120 cam will turn an well over 7000 rpm.

I respectfully disagree with 67VDUBYA that a heavier flywheel will help you "spool up" - a lighter flywheel will help the engine reach rpm quicker as well as help it slow down quicker after letting off the throttle.

[Meandean]

My personal theory on building new engines is to build it as big as possible, and close to stock as possible,  so that it will make the same power at a low rpm as a smaller engine would make at high rpm.  The most important aspect of building any engine is to ensure that the compression ratio matches the octane of the fuel (factors that affect compression ratios are not the size of the engine, but the over-lap of the cam and the amount of carburetion - the longer cam over-lap and larger the carburetion the higher the compression ratio can be with denotation)  Keeping the compression ratio reasonable allows you to use street available octane fuel without compromising reliability. 

A 2180cc engine with a mild but higher lift cam (or ratio rocker arms), mild porting , counter-balanced crankshaft, and a two-barrel carb will make the same power, but at a much lower rpm, than a wild 1600cc, vastly ported, big-cammed, dual carbureted, high compression engine burning 93 or more octane.

[mrmut]

Agree with @Meandean but disagree on the crankshaft.
It is known that in 1641 motor with FK 89 and with stock non-counterbalanced crankshaft has taken out 396HP at 7000RPM. 1/4=~10.2s
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,15843.0.html
Why not afraid to build this just something I need suggestion if you need to be changed and that performance will get this engine.

[Dougzilla]

A counterwieghted 69mm Crank is $200.
Cheap insurance with everything else you have
going into this project.

Unless you're made of money and just want to
see what you can do with a stock crank.

[cal 67]

Yeah, don't mean to stir up anything but I call B.S. on that low redline. All you need is a WELL balanced assy and you can take it sky high no issues. JPM does it and they're changing the way we think about things 1/4 mile at a time (1604cc 200 HP). If we keep on using these old time tested and proven methods w/o thinking outside of the box, we'll never get to the level that other racing scenes are. Even though just fine for a street engine, a Rimco balance job won't get you into the 7000 plus range. Contact someone who balances your assembly with the dowel pins, gland nut, clutch bolts, pulley bolt, piston wrist pins and retainers and gets tolerances LOW. Jake Raby race balance low.

[Meandean]

Call me a skeptic if you wish but I actually do not believe than any one in the entire world is campaigning a 10 second Beetle with a non-counter-weighted crank shaft (for more than one or two runs).  I've raced SCORE 5-1600 and Class-9 cars for years and this class doesn't allow counter-weighted cranks.  Since the classes each require a single 30 PICT carb. about 6000 is the max rpm that the engines will turn.  Every case that I have ever disassembled has show signs of pounding out the middle case bearing.  I don't see how his case is surviving.

[mrmut]

I currently love low-budget engine and someone braved the street race. To upgrade counterbalanced crankshaft not is $ 200 in macedonija it nearly cost the ~450 $.
I have the opportunity to balance the 9500 rpm.
I am a skeptic of stock non-counterbalanced crankshaft If it is well balanced are supposed to be in order.
After consultation with the other guys would say that the W120 not exceed 7000RPM , and one of these guys that I had a discussion with a 1603cc  Turbo engine with W130 1,25:1 Rocker 40X35,5valve ,non-counterbalanced crankshaft balance and says there is effectiveness 3000-7000RPM and maximum 8000RPM.
So began overcomes me and this idea of ​​W130 with 1.25:1 Rocker or another suggestion from the same guy FK89 with 1.25:1 Rocker , when he mentioned the proposal for FК 89 told me a long time thinking about what you set upper and told me that I should effectiveness of 4000-8200 rpm.How about this crazy idea

Whether to stay or W120 to change the W130 or FK 89 ???This totally confused me.

[67VDUBYA]

Try somethin different maybe it will be awesome i got mostly negative onfo when i turbos my motor that it wouldnt work and itll run too hot, blah blah blah. I put together what i had and it ran awesome. with no probs . there arent many 1600s reving past 6000 rpms  its always cool to see something
different work!

[Squirmn German]

Like 67 said, build it different and see what happens! I would be curious to see how it performs. if you listen all the geniuses on the net, you'd have 1000 different opinions, most of which aren't worth crap.

[mrmut]

You have the right and the two best what is checked functioning W120 or W130 and 1.25:1Rocker

[Aussie Rob]

IMO i would sit back and have another beer and watch repeats of Euro Vision.

[BeetleBug]

Call me a skeptic if you wish but I actually do not believe than any one in the entire world is campaigning a 10 second Beetle with a non-counter-weighted crank shaft (for more than one or two runs). 

Skeptic!

What about 10.18 and two seasons of racing and street driving.

[67VDUBYA]

thats cool! what are all the details?  super light reciprocating parts?

[Greg G]

We ran a hand full of 10 second passes in Buster John's car with my street motor. 2026cc non counterweighted crank motor we named the "SPORK" when we decided to take it to Sac to run Pro Mod. We ran about 5 10.70 passes before turning up the tune and ran a couple 10.40 passes before putting the big jets in and running 10.04 @ 135 turning 8400rpm thru the lights. After that we took it to Irwindale and made all of his licensing passes with the last two being a 6.32 and 6.35 in the 1/8th. That motor had been in my street car with a turbo running mid 11's with mild boost. Most of the videos are on youtube if you search for busterjohn. Pictures of the motor and the crank are on UAC. The Scat I-beam rods are in my present turbo motor still going strong.

Greg G.

[67VDUBYA]

nice I kinda forgot about your stuff i read through alot of your post over the last few years and i dig the car !

[mrmut]

I am currently interested in W120 and its rpm , but I sold the T3 turbo and bought a K27 will now start thinking about exercising the power from 4000-8000 rpm with this turbo to achieve 200hp on the wheel for this purpose is not sufficient W120 but will sell well and will go to the FK46 or any other this likely came running 11s and will be the fastest in my class 1600cc.

[BeetleBug]

thats cool! what are all the details?  super light reciprocating parts?

No, absolutely not:

1641cc
Orginal crank, no counterweights
CB H-profile 5,5" rods
Mahle 87mm pistons and barrels
Fk-89 cam
lube a lobe lifters
cromolly pushrods
scat 1,4:1 rockers
deep sump
Orginal heads, welded and ported but with original valves 35/32,5mm

1 5/8" exhaust
Holset HX35 turbo
1600cc injectors / E85
Autronic SM4 EUC with MSD 8245 coil

392 hp @ 32 psi. Runs with 40 psi on the street. Heavy street car with a full cage.

[67VDUBYA]

Bad ass sounds pretty simple an awesome!

[BeetleBug]

Bad ass sounds pretty simple an awesome!

Yes, use whatever left overs you have in your garage and apply boost.

[mrmut]

No, absolutely not:

1641cc
Orginal crank, no counterweights
CB H-profile 5,5" rods
Mahle 87mm pistons and barrels
Fk-89 cam
lube a lobe lifters
cromolly pushrods
scat 1,4:1 rockers
deep sump
Orginal heads, welded and ported but with original valves 35/32,5mm

1 5/8" exhaust
Holset HX35 turbo
1600cc injectors / E85
Autronic SM4 EUC with MSD 8245 coil

392 hp @ 32 psi. Runs with 40 psi on the street. Heavy street car with a full cage.

I know this much time, no such budget to start so you can start like this.

I know it will work perfectly with the FK 89 and the FK48 but want to try this serchkjata by FK46 as I worked.

You would advise me

[BeetleBug]

I would not use anything bigger than a FK45 but if you have a FK46 then use it. Make sure you have enough spring pressure.

What heads, head studs, turbo, ECU etc du you plan on using?

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

I built a 1600cc race/street motor once.
I had a Counterweighted crank, and a used W-125 cam.
Dual 44IDF carbs.
It would barely idle.
Ran like crap until 4,500rpm.
Then it would kick hard and flat GO.
Pulled to around 7,000rpm.
The heads were the limiter.
I did a sweet P/P job, reshaped chambers. Flycut alot.
 Ran mid 15's in my Superbeetle.

Just remember about every  10deg more advertized duration will push the rpm range up about 500rpm.
It's all about how high you want to rev it.
FK-89 would run about 5,500rpm to 9,000rpm with the right heads.
That's the true "oldschool" way of making power...

[BeetleBug]

A FK89 will want to produce power high up in the revs and some will argue and say it is not a good choice for a turbo engine. It depends what you want, loads of torque and cylinder pressure far down or rev it high.

I found a dyno paper from one of the first dyno runs at low boost:

 

[mrmut]

I would not use anything bigger than a FK45 but if you have a FK46 then use it. Make sure you have enough spring pressure.

What heads, head studs, turbo, ECU etc du you plan on using?

FK 46 or  48 or 89
rods 311 light
flywheel light 4,5kg
Rocker or 1,4:1
piston 340g
head 040 ported input port 36mm and output port 32mm (max. 34mm)
40x36  dual springs valve
kkk k27 Mercedes truck's turbo boost of 1,2 to 1,4 bar (1bar=14,7psi)
home made water injection
  Carb 40dcoe 32 ventur , over time directing and ECU MegaSquirt ,but to start I think this Carb dcoe it is in my hands that will do


well said @Ohio Tom (DdK) I am of those who want high RPM engine, scientific'm such a motor in all my previous cars.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

I have run an FK-89 in my turbo drag 2332 engine.
I recently switched to a Scat C-55 (similar grind, slightly less duration).
No crazy "turbo" grind. Just regular ole' straight-up grinds).

T3/4 hybrid turbo with a 600cfm Holley and big manafolding. S/E heads.
Starts around 5,000rpm and pulls past 8,000rpm.
Anything less than 5,000rpm is a bogg for the motor. It can barely get out of it's own way driving around the pits.
I gotta rev to atleast 3,000rpm to get it on the trailer...LOL...

So, Too big for a turbo motor???

For any kind of street use.. Yes
For drag racing.... not at all...