Tired of junky carburetors, need EFI

[turbotype1]

Case in point: I have been running my same1904cc motor for 4yrs now. I have been working with the drawthru sidedraft Dellorto carb this whole time. As I learn more and tweak things, it runs faster and faster every summer. This year it clicked off an 11.99 @ 115mph.  A full 1/4sec faster than it has ever run.
It's all in the tune...

I like the simplicity of a carberator because I know that I can always fix it..... because I understand it.

Can you say that for those EFI systems??
If not, then you may be trading one problem for another....

Just my thoughts...

Tom,

What are you doing for ignition timing?

I like the simplicity of the EFI and as far as the tuning goes , it's as easy as finding a comfortable seat ( drivers seat will do ) and booting up the lap top...don't even open the deck lid

Pete

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

"As far as tuning EFI goes, it isn't any harder that a set of carbs,

Pete"

That's my point exactly...If you can't tune a set of carbs, then EFI won't fix that problem.

Either way, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do anything. I'm just handing out my advice and thoughts.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

I'm running a Mallory Hyfire box with boost retard function (and start retard). Dist is locked out at 32deg. retards to 24 under boost.

Don't get me wrong about this. I have had my share of problems with my "simple" setup.
Fuel pressure problems, timing problems, wastegate issues, etc...

It's all gonna happen no matter what you choose to run.
The point is that you need to be able to recognize and troubleshoot issues. If not, then you are at the mercy of whoever you wish to pay to work on your VW all the time.

Anyways, sorry if I have crossed anyone, that wasn't my intention.
I just fealt that it may be helpful to offer some different advice.

[KAFUR1]

You can get every thing you need and mega squirt for under $1000  And there is alot of people out there using it so there is maps all over the net. And to boot you can get 30 mph with a built motor. They even have a touch screen to make ajustments with in car on the fly. 

[J Dotson]

"As far as tuning EFI goes, it isn't any harder that a set of carbs,

Pete"

That's my point exactly...If you can't tune a set of carbs, then EFI won't fix that problem.

Either way, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do anything. I'm just handing out my advice and thoughts.

I am the expert that tryed to tune Sams carbs a while back...he got these 48 Dellls from ebay or samba.....they are not tri jets...They were missing most orings,mixture springs and little washers etc and nasty...I been around the block a few times and i was getting very frustrated trying to even get a decent idle.I finnally got somewhat tuned but not real happy..I could not test drive it as its a off road not street legal ,can't drive the thing in my neighborhood..so got it close as i could.
I think maybe a internal plugs leaking or fell out...I told sam sending to Art sounds like a good deal as he has a lot of carb experience...hell thats his main
thing is'nt it...sam called me the other day and i think thats what he has decided.I love Dells and usually can get them purring like a kitten but these are
possessed with evil demons.

[martin]

The cost of efi is still high due to the cost of fuel rails, and custom throttle bodies, intakes, etc. If you add the price of dual carbs and a good ignition system the price would approach a ecu and sensors with ignition, but you still need intakes and fuel rails, plus injectors. Worth it in the long run though.

[Sam]

carbs are boxedup and on the way to ACE for "the works"

I may look at EFI again if I'm not satisfied, but for now I'll see what Art thinks about them.

[turbotype1]

It's all gonna happen no matter what you choose to run.
The point is that you need to be able to recognize and troubleshoot issues. If not, then you are at the mercy of whoever you wish to pay to work on your VW all the time.

Anyways, sorry if I have crossed anyone, that wasn't my intention.
I just fealt that it may be helpful to offer some different advice.

Tom, If that was directed at me...You didn't cross me at all. I'm just saying that EFI isn't any harder to tune than setting up carbs " properly". Alot of carbs are set-up " good enough".

What ever you run ( EFI or Carbs) it is gonna take time to set them up properly. No matter which way you go you must learn how to run them.

I know that ACE is THE carb guy, but, how can anyone set up carbs with-out them being bolted on the motor that they will be used on 

EFI is a healthy investment, that's for sure, but I feel it is worth every penny

My .02...Pete

[Sam]

I'm not sending carbs off to be set up, I'm sending them off to be rebuilt...... What do yall not get, the carbs have PROBLEMS. I'm no tuneing expert, but I'm not an Idiot.
This wasn't a tuning question, I was just trying to compare costs and benifits of going EFI, having my carbs fixed, or buying new carbs.

[martin]

You are pointing out an issue with carbs that can be hard to solve, and usually involves money to fix. The same troubleshooting can happen with efi, but when you're done troubleshooting and tweaking, with efi you have something that doesn't wear out like carbs. TB's do not have gas going thru them, so last forever, and fuel injectors seem way more reliable than jets. Modern cars don't have the problems like they did in the days of carbs.

[John P]

carbs are boxedup and on the way to ACE for "the works"

I may look at EFI again if I'm not satisfied, but for now I'll see what Art thinks about them.

You'll like the results.

[martin]

I wish you guys the best of luck with it. There are a number of features that keep me hanging on, hoping that this newest software/firmware release does the trick...such as the flexibility of the general purpose inputs and outputs, especially the PWM output for controlling a boost solenoid. But I'm continually discouraged by the extremely small user-base online and seeing other folks run into the same problems (like corrupted .bin files and AutoTune not functioning).

I asked Steve about the auto tune problem, and he said that you need to pay close attention to which cells are being filled in. In between those, the software extrapolates the numbers. (You need to be driving and watching the matrix to tune it). I didn't ask about the bin files, but he started off saying you could have a virus in your windows.

[JVance]

I asked Steve about the auto tune problem, and he said that you need to pay close attention to which cells are being filled in. In between those, the software extrapolates the numbers. (You need to be driving and watching the matrix to tune it). I didn't ask about the bin files, but he started off saying you could have a virus in your windows.

When I activate AutoTune, the little red dot (that typically moves around with RPM/MAP) just freezes. The values in the cells never change, regardless of whether I have the color overlay active or not. And because I cannot see those changes to the VE Table (*IF* AutoTune is even making those changes), I still could not go through and manually set each of the adjusted cells to save the changes...and that last issue is at least a problem with the software that Electromotive knows about and acknowledges.

That said, my favorite problem of the week is ignition timing. At idle, my ignition timing was about 4 degrees off from what I've set in the ignition table. No engine-temp compensation, no ignition idle-control. I even have the timing set to the same value across 6 cells of the ignition table that flank the RPM and MAP at idle, so the timing should not be interpolating between the values in the surrounding cells. I decided to adjust the start-up advance which is set lower than the idle timing; this should not matter because the lowest cell in the ignition table is 200+ RPM lower than the idle RPM, there should be no interpolation off the table...but now that the start-up advance is set to the same timing as during idle, I'm now only 1.5 degrees off from the ignition table. Whoopie!

BTW, my laptop has never been online since the hard-drive was replaced + fresh install of XP. I don't have time to play with it until after Father's day, so maybe I'll shoot to load the newest version of WinTec4 and update the firmware after then.

[Mike Lawless]

Who is running CB Quick Tune EFI?  Is it worth the money? $2200 is a lot of money if it dont work like it should.

We have it on Cindy's daily driver. Been on there close to two years now. We had some issues, but it was problems with the car itself that were brought to light when the system was installed and not with the system. Some electrical gremlins (low voltage due to bad alternator), coil incompatibility Bosch Blue Coil), crap in my fuel system that dislodged with the higher system pressures... This was one of the very first installations and the stuff that we ran into has gone to improve the current system.

it's been fairly trouble free for quite a while now. We have a few long distance road trips on it, with some time in the worst conditions that will typically be seen, such as sitting in holiday traffic in Southern California when it was close to 100° for a couple hours. And it does literally tune itself.

We have a documentation of the install on my website.
www.lawlessdesigns.com.
Use the WKR link, then the CBs New EFI at the bottom of the page.

[martin]

When I activate AutoTune, the little red dot (that typically moves around with RPM/MAP) just freezes. The values in the cells never change, regardless of whether I have the color overlay active or not. And because I cannot see those changes to the VE Table (*IF* AutoTune is even making those changes), I still could not go through and manually set each of the adjusted cells to save the changes...and that last issue is at least a problem with the software that Electromotive knows about and acknowledges.

That said, my favorite problem of the week is ignition timing. At idle, my ignition timing was about 4 degrees off from what I've set in the ignition table. No engine-temp compensation, no ignition idle-control. I even have the timing set to the same value across 6 cells of the ignition table that flank the RPM and MAP at idle, so the timing should not be interpolating between the values in the surrounding cells. I decided to adjust the start-up advance which is set lower than the idle timing; this should not matter because the lowest cell in the ignition table is 200+ RPM lower than the idle RPM, there should be no interpolation off the table...but now that the start-up advance is set to the same timing as during idle, I'm now only 1.5 degrees off from the ignition table. Whoopie!

BTW, my laptop has never been online since the hard-drive was replaced + fresh install of XP. I don't have time to play with it until after Father's day, so maybe I'll shoot to load the newest version of WinTec4 and update the firmware after then.

Sounds like you're making some progress. I've played around with the startup advance (controlled by the CLT temp sensor) and it does cut out after the engine reaches the preset temp, nice feature. If you have a specific question let me know and I can ask for you, and good luck with the new software!

[JVance]

I've played around with the startup advance (controlled by the CLT temp sensor) and it does cut out after the engine reaches the preset temp, nice feature.

Huh? The start-up advance should only be active when the engine is cranking over. Once the engine is running, it refers to the coolant advance settings to make any further adjustments to the ignition table. But, even when the start-up advance is set to the same timing as the ignition advance at idle, and the coolant advance is set to 0, and the idle RPM control is turned off, the timing still does not read exactly what is set in the ignition table. Somewhere, the ECU is subtracting a few degrees of timing on its own, and there are no other ignition settings that would reflect where this adjustment is coming from.

[martin]

Sure, you're right. It's been a few years since I've played around with mine, but I do remember using that feature for helping to keep the cold engine running at a higher rpm with the extra advance. Keep us posted and let us know how things work out for you.

[bowen71]

We have a documentation of the install on my website.
www.lawlessdesigns.com.
Use the WKR link, then the CBs New EFI at the bottom of the page.

Are these directions still on there I cant find them.

[madoski]

Why should you have to tune EFI once you figure out what kind of an advance and fuel curve you want?  Isn't that the whole point of having the ECU and all the sensors?  I can see having to do the original setup, but after that, won't EFI adjust for engine temp, altitude, ambient temp, etc?  I know that if I go from my place at 4000 feet down to Famoso close to sea level, my carbs won't change their jetting all by themselves, but in theory, EFI should make the necessary changes in AFR and timing to run at optimum efficiency and not lean out.

[JVance]

Why should you have to tune EFI once you figure out what kind of an advance and fuel curve you want?

As simple as that, no you should not have to tune EFI once you get the tune right.

Isn't that the whole point of having the ECU and all the sensors?  I can see having to do the original setup, but after that, won't EFI adjust for engine temp, altitude, ambient temp, etc?

Most programmable EFI requires the user to tune how the EFI adjusts for engine temp and ambient (air) temp. Altitude should be compensated for with most MAP-based tuning. But in a nutshell, if you don't tell the EFI how to react to the sensors (tuning!), the EFI cannot magically do it.

 I know that if I go from my place at 4000 feet down to Famoso close to sea level, my carbs won't change their jetting all by themselves, but in theory, EFI should make the necessary changes in AFR and timing to run at optimum efficiency and not lean out.

AFR is also user-programmable. Again, the user is required to tune the AFR table and determine how much authority the EFI has to deviate from the base fuel map to make those closed-loop adjustments.

[madoski]

JV, that all makes sense.  Spreadsheets and computer logic are almost second nature to me, but I've never tuned anything beyond a set of Kadrons, so I'm not nearly as intimidated by EFI as I would be by trying to dial in four different barrels of a dual carb setup.  Setting up the set points and sensitivity and reaction to changes in input variables makes perfect sense.  I wouldn't expect my engine to work the same as an old V8, Porsche, rice burner, or anything else, hence the need to dial in the ECU to my specific application.

I just got an EFI from a Mexican Beetle that I'm going to try to install and tune on my 1600, now equipped with Kadrons...baby steps...

[1slick67]

Or you could buy a good set of carbs. =)

That's what I'm talking about! And,much cheaper!

[1836vw]

The Dellorto or Dells are cheaper than the Weber carbs.   Why is it that Glenn and John run a 48 IDA Weber and will have no problems?  Maybe you need to go with EFI system if you don't have the Webers?

[Sam]

The Dellorto or Dells are cheaper than the Weber carbs.   Why is it that Glenn and John run a 48 IDA Weber and will have no problems?  Maybe you need to go with EFI system if you don't have the Webers?

Folks could argue back and fourth about what is better dells or webers. Seems to me italian webers are as good as dells, anything else you will get varying opinions on or it depends on batch numbers, ect

The problem with the older dells is that It cost me $650 to get my dells that started this forum put back in good shape. They gave ACE fits to repair. They ended up needing major rebuild and new throttle shafts. ACE told me they were the hardest pair of carbs they have ever had to fix. I have had them back for I guess a year or so now and after tuning them once I have not had to touch them. I push a button and the thing cranks up and purrs like a kitten. My longtravel suspension has drastically helped the problems I had before with flooding when going over large bumps.

If I ever need new carbs I will buy EFI, I gave $700 for my dells, spent $650 fixing them, put new linkage and air filters on them $85 from CB, put the matching intakes for my wedgeport heads on them $200. I have lots of jets for them, probably $150 worth, Big needle and seats $30 or so, 3 sets of venturis $100.   I have more invested in my carburation than most normal folks spend on an entire engine, granted some of the parts are spairs and could be sold off , but you never know when you will need them.

Seems to me that webers are easier to setup, but Most engines that I have put webers on are mild and most that I put dells on a more on the wild side.