mike
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Posts: 21
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« on: December 02, 2010, 01:45:42 pm » |
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Hey Guys,
Just got a set of Brazilian KS bearings in the mail and I'm quite unhappy to discover that they are no longer steel backed (#2 bearing) like my last set of German KS.
Are there any sources left for German KS bearings? Any major caveats to running non-steel backed bearings?
Thanks,
Michael
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gkeeton@zbzoom.net
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 10:01:25 pm » |
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Mahle now owns KS, and they have been producing non-steel backed bearings for a while. LET THE HORDING BEGIN! I'm sure there are people stock piling steel backed bearing sets as we speak. Do some searching for steel backed bearings, but as more and more people realize this, the steel backed sets are going to double, and triple. At least the Type 1 guys have bearings to buy. Recently there was a Type 2 shortage, and I spoke to a few that ended up paying $300+ for a $50 Mahle bearing set. I spoke with one person searching for bearings that talked with a shop that got $600 for a set of German KS Type 2 Bearings. As far as the steel backed sets compaired to the non-backed ones, I would think they may not be as durable, but I'll let the more experienced builders answer that.
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Ohio Tom (DdK)
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 09:38:01 pm » |
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I have used the non-steel bearings for years. I never really noticed much difference in wear on either the case or the crankshaft.
It's one of those things that "nice to have" but not really required in my book.
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Ohio Tom Simpson. Home of the Killa' Bee.
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A.J.Sims
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 03:49:49 am » |
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We are making bearing bronze type 1 std/std kits.
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Have Fun!!
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Jake Raby
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 12:38:06 pm » |
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I found that the non steel backed bearings measured .001 or so tighter than the steel backed versions back to back.
I refuse to use a non steel backed center main..
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2DubTech
Junior
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Posts: 209
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 04:39:57 pm » |
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It would be nice to have a steel back bearing but that is crazy to spend over $125, let alone $300 and $600 for a set of bearings, in my opinion. I would just run the non steel back ones if that is all I could find, because there is no way I am going to spend that much. I think my limit is about $100 for a bearing set, but that is just me.
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A&G's Racing
Build 4 torque talk about horsepower
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gkeeton@zbzoom.net
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 09:44:15 pm » |
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I refuse to use a non steel backed center main..
What happens if the next production run of Type 2/4 main bearings come like the Type 1 bearings without the steel back? I thought I read somewhere you were in the process of retrofitting the cases to use a more modern/current bearing? |
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Jake Raby
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 05:09:11 am » |
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I'll not use a non steel backed center main. Been there.
We are testing a modern bearing retrofit now. It requires a case cut and altered crank journals as well. I refuse to conform to the VW supply lines.
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Ohio Tom (DdK)
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 06:20:02 pm » |
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What issues have you seen using non-steel backed bearings? What kind of issues did you see? I know that if given a choice, they are nice. However, why are they "required"? I am curious because I'm not the only one who seems to do just fine w/o them... http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9667.0 |
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Ohio Tom Simpson. Home of the Killa' Bee.
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Esky
Newbie
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Posts: 53
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 08:21:14 pm » |
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I have a set of Brazilian KS bearings I bought back in march and they are steel backed. I wonder when they stopped making them that way.
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Jake Raby
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 03:03:42 am » |
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The problem I had was the inability to achieve proper bearing clearance with them..They seem to be too tight, by almost .001 even when all the saddles measure the same size. I put them in the #1 and #3 positions with the same repeatability on the bore gauge.
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Jason Foster
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 03:28:51 am » |
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We are making bearing bronze type 1 std/std kits.
maybe this was missed |
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12.35 at 106 7.69 at 87
Der Kleiner Panzers
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Jason Foster
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 03:29:34 am » |
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I will be using A.J.'s bearing bronze bearings.
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12.35 at 106 7.69 at 87
Der Kleiner Panzers
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Mike Lawless
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 05:07:46 pm » |
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Jason, do you know anyone that's using those? Curious to know how they are working out.
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Ohio Tom (DdK)
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 06:11:15 pm » |
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Thanks Jake for the info. I will check that out on future builds. Thanks.
So A.J.'s selling an adaptor thrust setup?
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Ohio Tom Simpson. Home of the Killa' Bee.
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Jason Foster
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2010, 06:51:33 pm » |
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No Mike this is a whole new venture on Aj's behalf to solve an evident problem. I wasn't going to say anything but he has anounced it so I did. I unlike some TRUST AJ's insight and ideas. He is doing the research the planning and bringing this to the community. I am in the process of a whole new buildup and will be using these bearings.
To Tom. This isn't a thrust setup.
AJ chime in.
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12.35 at 106 7.69 at 87
Der Kleiner Panzers
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gkeeton@zbzoom.net
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2010, 09:17:38 pm » |
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It's great that AJ is trying to remedy a situation that is causing some issues. I would be curious as how well the bearings work out. In the UAC thread Tom posted, someone mentioned trying to make Aluminum Bronze Bearings, but didn't have too much success. I hope AJ has better success. What are these going to run? I'm all for improving a part that has degraded for one reason or another, but the cost has to be within reason.
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Jake Raby
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 11:47:15 pm » |
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I've had experience trying to make mains for modern Porsche engines.. The engines were so new when I started working with them that no bearings were being sold so I had to do something.
Every effort resulted in serious failure.. I ended up simply having the OE used bearings coated with the best luck of all.
Its very difficult development and its painful, the only way to evaluate the components is to risk a complete engine.... Not to say it can't be done, but determining proper crush, materials, running clearance and etc will be nothing to sneeze at.
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A.J.Sims
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 11:59:43 pm » |
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Hey all. Yes I am working on a full STD/STD type 1 set that is made 100% from a special bearing bronze. They have the best of Kolbenschmidt, Metal Leve, Silverline and Mahle built in to them and also type 4 features built in to this type 1 set. Jake would you like to test a set?
As for the pricing i do not know at this time but can tell you they will be the best you can get. A sneak peek at the rear main.
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Have Fun!!
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gkeeton@zbzoom.net
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 12:31:43 am » |
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The good news is he asked Jake to test a set, the bad news is he asked Jake to test a set. I hope everything works out well, and they are the solution for those not wanting to use the non-steel backed bearings. With the VW crowd being so "frugal", I can't see people spending more than $75-$100 a set. It really stinks that it's gotten to the point were OE parts have had design changes, most likely to make the part cheaper, and have to be re-engineered in the aftermarket to get back to the "good" design. I don't mind paying more for something if it's genuinely a better part. If this is a trend for things to come, and the prices go up too high for aftermarket parts that are made to "correct" poor design changes, it will put a serious damper on the hobby.
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Mike Lawless
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 01:00:10 am » |
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Well, it's most likely gonna shape up to be like early Hemi and flathead V8 engines. Those used to be cheap for hot rodders too, until the supply of parts ran out. For the time being people will either have to settle for what is obtainable and cheap, or pay for what they insist upon having.
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Dominick Luppino
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 11:16:12 am » |
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Hey all. Yes I am working on a full STD/STD type 1 set that is made 100% from a special bearing bronze. They have the best of Kolbenschmidt, Metal Leve, Silverline and Mahle built in to them and also type 4 features built in to this type 1 set. Jake would you like to test a set?
As for the pricing i do not know at this time but can tell you they will be the best you can get. A sneak peek at the rear main.
Good idea, I had a set made a long time ago and they were the best bearings I ever had! |
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Jake Raby
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 11:52:37 am » |
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AJ,
I'd be happy to run a set. If you'd like to make these for the TIV as well I'll help you test those and develop them..
The issues I had with bearings typically took a long time to show up, in fact one of the bearings we made in 2002 just came back to bite us in the ass 6 months ago.. When that one failed it marked a 100% failure rate for those bearings.
UOA is an excellent way to monitor this type of wear. Through my oil development I have UOA samples that can be used as baselines to compare an engine to that had this bearing material.
What makes this difficult is the fact that its so critical and takes so ,long to do with so many variables. I dreaded having to deal with it so bad that we would rather retrofit modern bearings to the TIV as have to make them, but its apparent that both choices need to be available.
Price doesn't matter. Whats required to do it right will always be a greater number and thats just reality.
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:54:41 am by Jake Raby »
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A.J.Sims
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 11:12:11 pm » |
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First type 1 std/std followed by type 4 std/std then offer part type 1 type 4 flanged kit then all type 4 flanged kit. After all that move on to the over/under sizes.
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Have Fun!!
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Bad bug
Junior
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Posts: 133
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 11:19:17 pm » |
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I hope you guys can pull this off.
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RACECRAF
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« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2010, 01:47:03 am » |
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All this sounds good to me. So I assume later to see a 411 center main, right AJ?
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Bad bug
Junior
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2011, 04:10:28 am » |
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Does anyone know where this project is at.
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1950split
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2011, 05:00:13 pm » |
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Hi Guys,
I just faced an issue with KS brazilian main bearings. With the case torqued properly the crank wouldn't rotate. I contacted CSP in Germany and they proposed me some Silverline main bearings which they say are quality stuff. What is your opinion about this brand? Engine will be a 2276 with 86c cam, dpr crank and idas. Case comes from Brothers..
Thanks for your comments..
Phil
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 05:02:39 pm by 1950split »
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RACECRAF
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2011, 01:46:26 am » |
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RACECRAF
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2011, 01:47:35 am » |
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They have Type I and IV........   Ted |
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1950split
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2011, 10:42:48 am » |
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Yeap, Type I & IV But what is the general opinion about their products ? I've read somewhere that the production location has changed !? Right or wrong. I really don't want to fit crappy bearings in a brand new high Hp engine  |
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RACECRAF
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2011, 01:10:55 pm » |
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I hear there pretty good, going to order a set for my big HP motor.
Ted
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Bad bug
Junior
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2011, 01:21:49 pm » |
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Any word on the new bearings from AJ sims.
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bugninva
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2011, 09:45:23 pm » |
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well, it's AJ.....it could take awhile.... |
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Jason Foster
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 12:11:00 am » |
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last I heard first batch was off the lathe and was going to cnc.
It's very close if not done. I will get ahold of him.
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12.35 at 106 7.69 at 87
Der Kleiner Panzers
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