Lifters...

[M. Notary]

Putting together a 82x94 roller motor.  I plan on putting it in a 64 356 and "drive" it around town some.  I have some nice welded triple springs 44x37.5 heads and a FK-87.  I was just given a new set of Scat Lube a lobes mfg. in 07.  I also have a set of stock lifters that were reground.
Any opinions on which lifters to use???

[fiatdude]

UDO lifters

[maui]

Stock

[Donny B.]

I second the Udo tool steel lifters.  After three flat cams that is what I am running.

[QuickKafer]

Stock!

Scott Faivre

[stealth67vw]

Stock!

Scott Faivre

Stock lifters on an FK-87 are an awesome way to flatten a cam.

[QuickKafer]

Not when you buy them directly from Engle as their kit. Engle guarantees them.  The Lube A Lobe was the other choice according to the original poster. Its hard to make a blanket statement like that since there are so many variables such as, build technique, parts chosen, lubricants, break in methods, and the old vodoo cam break in dance we used to joke about here on the CLF.

Everytime the topic of Lube A Lobe's come up, I always have to ask: if the surface of the lifter (where the hole is) is being blocked because of the cam lobe at the rate of the cylinder head valve spring (several hundred pounds) there is no way oil can squirt out of that hole since oil pressure will never approach this level of pressure.  How can there possibly any benefit? I'm not slamming Scat, it just doesn't make any logical sense.  Now there maybe something I'm missing, if so, please educate me.  Until then I'll continue to run CB race weight lifters, Bugpack lifters, and stock lifters. I've never had a flat cam (knock on wood) with berg, engle, and stock camshafts with dual springs.

Scott Faivre

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

SLR cams...
We have a SLR cam in Doug's Pro-Stock motor.
Many passes later and has lost 0 lift and looks perfect..

[M. Notary]

Scott.. the center of the lifter is blocked only during max lift..
With all the other lifters mentioned, I remember I also have a set of CB's and a set of ceramic Schubecks.

I think maybe not worry about it too much and the better question is what oil to use...  I have always used Crane Cam's Cam assembly lube on the lifters and cam and any off the shelf oil.

thanks
Mike

[QuickKafer]

Scott.. the center of the lifter is blocked only during max lift..
Mike

Really? Is the lifter bore slightly offset to the centerline of the camshaft?  That's the only way I could see validity to your statement above because the lifter is always in contact with the cam lobe.

I'm sure Bruce Tweddle has a drawing or something that can shed light on the subject.   That guy has everything!

Scott Faivre

[maui]

I still have stock broken in lifters from 30yrs ago and is cherry and wen go at least 100,000mls on it and no problems. To me, stock German lifters are a good way to go.

[Bruce Tweddle]

Scott, I think you're right!  That worthless hole is mostly blocked.

... Is the lifter bore slightly offset to the centerline of the camshaft?  That's the only way I could see validity to your statement above because the lifter is always in contact with the cam lobe.

The lifter MUST be exactly on the centerline of the camshaft.  Otherwise the opening and closing events of the valves would be different from the left side of the engine to the right.  The lifters can be offset front to rear.  That won't affect cam timing.

The top of the lobe is ground with a taper to promote lifter spin.  Look at any used cam, the contact marks ride up one side of the opening ramp and down the same side of the closing ramp.  Then as the tips of the lobes wear, this taper goes away.  This is due to the extreme pressure, which is maximum at full lift.  The taper on the opening and closing ramps last a lot longer since the pressure is lower.

To me, this means the hole is blocked all the way around the base circle and partly up the ramps.  Then the hole should be slightly clear from contact at full lift.  But by the time the taper of the cam goes away, the hole is blocked 100% of the time.

Story time:
Local to me is an old timer who used to road race a 356.  They used to show up on the Saturday of a race weekend with a fresh engine.  They'd run all through qualifying, and by the end of the day, the cam was going away.  They'd tow the car home, pull the engine and tear it down.  They'd take out the flat cam and put a new one in.  Then the next day during the race, the cam would live about the length of the race.  At least they had all week after that to swap that second dead cam.
All summer long they did this, killing a couple of dozen cams before someone had an idea. Why not drill some lube holes?  Sounds just like George Brown doesn't it? Wrong!
The obvious way for them to do it was to rifle drill the camshaft.  The internal drilling extended all the way from the flywheel end to the lobe nearest the gear.  Then they drilled 3 radial holes at the camshaft's center main journal bearing so that oil could get into the drilling.  At the center of the base circle, they drilled a 1mm hole, radial to the camshaft.  Finally, the end of the camshaft was plugged.  Since the cam's center main journal was constantly fed, the whole cam got a constant supply. Those four 1mm holes would spray all the time, and lay down a line of oil on the lifter just before it was lifted.
The result was tremendous.  They were able to go entire race seasons without a single cam change.

[QuickKafer]

...Point, Game, Set, Match.


(Or however the hell tennis works)

[DonPauter]

Scott.. the center of the lifter is blocked only during max lift..

closer to truth, in most popular aftermarket grinds

[gbw]

as the cam moves down the closing side of the lobe, your valve clearance allows the lifter to oil the heel and openning ramp. also the hole is only block at full lift

[QuickKafer]

as the cam moves down the closing side of the lobe, your valve clearance allows the lifter to oil the heel and openning ramp. also the hole is only block at full lift

So, .006 worth of clearance through that tiny hole for a tiny fraction of a second, will allow the flow of oil on the heel of the lobe? I think max oiling would be most beneficial at half lift and above.

Does this warrant the discussion to turn toward oil squirters for the cam and lifter area? Some guys are doing oil squirters for the back of the pistons.  Is it possible to fit these things in the cam area of a stock case?

Scott Faivre

[Bruce Tweddle]

Scott, incorporate the squirters into the cam like I described above.

[QuickKafer]

I haven't had a need to do anything different from what I've been doing, but that definitely would be the way to go.

Sort of like adding the notch to the wrist pin area instead of adding squirters. Simple and effective.

I'm embarrassed to say I don't get many opportunities to drive my VWs much do to the crazy work and family schedules I keep.  My new years resolution is to make some "daddy time" for myself. We'll see what will happen.

[DonPauter]

So, .006 worth of clearance through that tiny hole for a tiny fraction of a second, will allow the flow of oil on the heel of the lobe? I think max oiling would be most beneficial at half lift and above.

 During a complete 360 degree cycle the average VW cam lobe covers an area larger than the diameter of a nickle (aprox .875") across the face of the lifter, during that cycle the only time the contact plane crosses the center of the lifter is around full open and full closed valve. Throughout the remainder of the cycle the contact is either above or below the center line of the lifter which offers ample exposure of the oil hole to perform as intended.....  that is, if you feel the need.

[QuickKafer]

Good Information There Don!  Thank you.  Finally some concrete information on the subject from a reliable source!

But, as you stated, "...if you feel the need."

I guess I don't believe I feel I have the need.  I'm just not sold on the science of the lube a lobe lifters to warrant there use.  I have had great success with stock, Bugpack, and CB race wieght lifters.  Why fix what's not broke?

Scott Faivre

[DonPauter]

But, as you stated, "...if you feel the need."

I guess I don't believe I feel I have the need.  I'm just not sold on the science of the lube a lobe lifters to warrant there use.

 considering that all of the oil in, around and flying off the moving parts in the area above the cam and lifters must pass by the cam and lifters to reach the sump... I'd have to agree the volume of sufficiant lubrication is not an issue with this layout.

[arnolds64]

The biggest problem we have now is low zinc Oils. Modern oil has almost half of what it was 10 years ago. Make sure you use a Brad Penn Break in and regular use or another high zinc oil. Low ZDDP kills our lifters and cams. Pulled a set of lifters out of my bug about 1 year ago that were pitted. Originally before these it had an Engle Cam and Mahle Blacks and they looked fine with regular wear after taking those out.  Decide to stroke the engine in 2007.  Since the original lifters I took out looked fine I did the identical set up again. When I pulled those they were pitted when I went to a W-130 recently. The original engine was built in 1996 when Oil had more zinc. The 110 and Mahles I put in, in about 2007, I thought I was using high Zinc Oil in Rotella T. By then they cut the ZDDP back and I did not know this and the result? Check this out - image: One one left is the recent one (Broke in with Rotella T) and the other the older original when there were higher levels of zinc in the oils. Scary crap!

[/URL]

I used Engle Lifters this time with Joe Gibbs and switched to Brad Penn for regular use. I did the Hoover mod grooving the Lifters. I practiced on the trashed Black Mahles. Then did it on the Engles. I can tell you the Engles Rockwell hardness is much harder. It took more pressure to cut them than the Mahles. I also had them weighed and they were the same as the Mahles. Not too light.

[J Dotson]

All i been useing for the last couple years is Engle lifters on Engle cams, adding Comp Cams break in additive to the oil and at each oil change.
Everythings doing great for me.Wow i ain't been on here in a while....

[martin]

 considering that all of the oil in, around and flying off the moving parts in the area above the cam and lifters must pass by the cam and lifters to reach the sump... I'd have to agree the volume of sufficiant lubrication is not an issue with this layout.

Steve S. told me of the importance of a high idle speed to help lube the cam, etc. He said that some of the top engine builders endorse this idea and keep a high idle on even their everyday cars.

[martin]

All i been useing for the last couple years is Engle lifters on Engle cams, adding Comp Cams break in additive to the oil and at each oil change.
Everythings doing great for me.Wow i ain't been on here in a while....

I hadn't heard of that additive, sounds interesting. What additives are people using to supplement the zinc in your oil? I've also heard moly recommended as a supplement for the same reason.

[J Dotson]

been getting mine from Speedway Motors but most like Summit, Jegs etc have it...
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=159&Category_Code=LUBE

I hadn't heard of that additive, sounds interesting. What additives are people using to supplement the zinc in your oil? I've also heard moly recommended as a supplement for the same reason.

[Terry Gaudet]

Just thinking here...but isn't the cam and lifter faces submerged in oil on a wet sump motor?  I would think that if parts are soaking in oil, the delivery of oil would not be an issue.  Please correct me if i'm wrong. 

In a dry sump motor this would be a problem as the oil is sucked out of the base and stored in external tank. 

[arnolds64]

Terry, No they are not Submerged in oil. They have a Oil Channels. Look up Bob Hoover's VW writings. Good stuff.