How far off is the $15,000 Stroker Engine?

[Squirmn German]

Hey Gene, see if you can get Bob to put down the welder for a couple of minutes, and possibly post some of his thoughts?

Bob tends to talk through me on the internet, as he is just too busy to sit here and talk about VW's most of the time. He is the most hard working guy i have ever met next to my dad. I will tell you this, if you want someone to build your car the right way, not take shortcuts, and back up his work, then its Cooker's.

We built custom homes in the Washington DC suburbs for 20 years together. Our dad has done so even longer. We learned from our father that work ethic and quality or product is what really matters, because you have just built a business card for MANY people to see, so it better be right cause bad news travels much faster than good. Our houses won more awards than I can shake a stick at, and the Cooker's cars on on their way to the same.

Yes, you will pay for the quality of work. No, there is no such thing as a "good, cheap paint job" around here. It doesn't exist here. We were basically ran out of the custom home business as the quality of product fell around us. Builders wanted the quick buck, hired foreign workers, the pride of being a craftsman went right out the window and we said F*ck it. You guys want it? Take it. Bye. Meanwhile, the homeowner is still paying the same high cost, getting less of a product, and the builders and crapty foreign crews of workers are destroying the trade.

So, Cooker's will not give you a "cheap, corner cutting" resto because you can't afford it. Why? Because the first question a person asks you is , "who did that paint job?" NOT "What are the circumstances as to why you didn't spend the correct amount of money to get a NICE resto?" In other words, save up your money for an important investment or take your crap to Econo German Auto, or Macco, or some other hack.

Cheers!

[Alexander_Monday]

We were basically ran out of the custom home business as the quality of product fell around us. Builders wanted the quick buck, hired foreign workers, the pride of being a craftsman went right out the window ....... Meanwhile, the homeowner is still paying the same high cost, getting less of a product, and the builders and crapty foreign crews of workers are destroying the trade.

Having been in the construction business for a long time, I must give a hearty AMEN! to that statement.  Those of us that are based on quality are getting fewer and further between and if something doesn't change there won't be any of us left in business before too long.

Now back to the topic.......

[schell 59]

Very true Gene...and we both know if you do a lower cost job that would be the one that everyone wants to critique...just not worth it.

If you can't afford to do it right the first time you should take up a different hobby...regardless if it's a vw or a chevelle.

[superdrag]

I don't frequent this site very often anymore, and I must admit first thing that I didn't read the entire thread here. Anyway, here's my experience with the situation.  I don't have much money at all.  Especially now with the new baby.  When I built my car, I spent a few YEARS perusing TheSamba looking for deals.  Most of my car is used because I couldn't afford new.  And I ended up with a pretty solid car.  You can still build a VW cheap, you just have to search.  If you get a funny feeling from a seller, don't buy.  If the part isn't exactly what you want, wait until exactly what you want pops up.  I build my own transmissions too.  Most of it is stock VW parts.  Stock ring and pinions, stock mainshafts, pretty much everything except for 3rd and 4th, the spool, and the axles.  I also did the paint and bodywork on my car.  Built my own engine.   Hell, I even notched my pistons in my garage.     Anyway, I could ramble on, but the bottom line is I have a fun, fast car for around $5000 TOTAL.  Build it right, buy used, do all of your own work,  be patient, and and I think it can still be done.   Besides, after a few passes, your expensive new parts are already used anyway.  

*Edit.......I am also a VW parts hoarder.  I have PILES of stock cases, doghouse cooling tin, a huge box of 3.88's, mainshafts, blah, blah, blah.  I am even getting another car that I have no intentions of building right now.  I will be storing it for about 16 years to build for my newborn son! The more you have hoarded now, the less the industry can have you by the nuts.

[schell 59]

there are many different type of guys in this hobby,your is more common than you may think..your ways of doing things IS the New England way 100%,about the only thing some guys here will out source is paint and body, and if you think your shop gonna get top dollar, you are VERY wrong.   

though you would wanna hook the guy up and give him a super sweet,trailer queen type of paint job,he ain't gonna pay you..regardless how many hours you have in it..don't even think about charging more than $1500 for a rebuilt motor that ain't gonna fly either.

there are guys who do foot the decent bill but i generally stay away from the guy who doesn't wanna pay for a real nice job,he's not going to pay and just plain won't respect it...he can go some where else, as i know for a fact he is gonna hold me to that 2k paint job for the rest of that cars life!!!

this is why some one in my shoes has to outside the box and go in other brands and models...the vw crowd is exactly as you described here,the muscle car crowd and hot rod folk are not.

[1836vw]

Well your a little short on the money of $ 15,000 for the flat four motor.    It's about $20,000 and you still need to pay to get it tuned.  Please don't forget the teardown to check it out each year of $1200.  Good luck

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

*Edit.......I am also a VW parts hoarder.  I have PILES of stock cases, doghouse cooling tin, a huge box of 3.88's, mainshafts, blah, blah, blah.  I am even getting another car that I have no intentions of building right now.  I will be storing it for about 16 years to build for my newborn son! The more you have hoarded now, the less the industry can have you by the nuts.

Because of way too many stupid ass people scrapping stuff, in the Northeast, it's getting to the point were you have to be a gatherer/horder if you want to continue in the hobby. In my brief time of 8 years working at a VW shop, I've seen Type 1 transaxle core charges that have gone from $50, to $250 in some instances. And the Type 2 cores have gone from $200, to $600 at some shops. Things like engine cases, and transaxles are things I'm hording. A good used case could be had at the swap meets for $50 ten years ago. If things keep going the way they are, you'll be able to sell your horded cases for $500-$700 a pop in the not too distant future.

Well your a little short on the money of $ 15,000 for the flat four motor.    It's about $20,000 and you still need to pay to get it tuned.  Please don't forget the teardown to check it out each year of $1200.  Good luck

I'm talking about your average "cookie cutter" street car Type 1 stroker 2276 engine that's in the range of $4500 to $7000 currently. Unless you live "across the pond" like BeetleBug, and have extra taxes, and duties, $20,000 for an average street engine is pretty outrageous in 2011 prices.

[superdrag]

Well your a little short on the money of $ 15,000 for the flat four motor.    It's about $20,000 and you still need to pay to get it tuned.  Please don't forget the teardown to check it out each year of $1200.  Good luck

These numbers are rediculous.

[1836vw]

superdrag was I too high or too low?   I know that I did not add the fuel system  or the electronics or the brain to run them.  Maybe you will go all mechanical system?

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

The poster simply stated flat four, not necessarily a VW engine. I'm sure some of Jake's Porsche Builds may approach/exceed $20,000. They also didn't mention were they were at. I remember a while back reading on thesamba, someone in the U.S. was complaining about prices of things, and someone from South Africa replied that it cost much more to build a performance engine there because of the high taxes/tarifs on parts. I think they mentioned it cost them about $10,000 to build a simple 1776. So in their instance, a healthy 2332 street engine may cost them $20,000.

[superdrag]

superdrag was I too high or too low?   I know that I did not add the fuel system  or the electronics or the brain to run them.  Maybe you will go all mechanical system?

Maybe I missed something.  Who said we were talking only about EFI?  My point was simply that in *MY* Volkswagen world, $20,000 is crazy.  I have a mid 12 second car, and a daily driver with a 1776.   I have under $10,000 in both cars added together.  Neithor car is a record setter, but they get their own jobs done and they are far from piles of junk.

[Dougzilla]

THIS... is a 15k stroker engine.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

Right on my brother...

[madoski]

I'm sure that Mexican Bug with the Autocraft case in the last HVW's was right up there, but as Mike said early on, we all take it to a different level.  Not everyone needs a $15k longblock to have a good time.  I'm thinking of going back to a 40 horse daily driver as gas prices inch upwards a few cents every day.  The best car I've ever owned was a rusted out '64 Ghia that I drove home from Ft. Benning GA in July of '92 and put a stock DP 1600 in a few months later.  It was just fun to drive and had loads of character.  Probably didn't qualify as a Cal Look god, oh well...

[Jake Raby]

The poster simply stated flat four, not necessarily a VW engine. I'm sure some of Jake's Porsche Builds may approach/exceed $20,000. They also didn't mention were they were at. I remember a while back reading on thesamba, someone in the U.S. was complaining about prices of things, and someone from South Africa replied that it cost much more to build a performance engine there because of the high taxes/tarifs on parts. I think they mentioned it cost them about $10,000 to build a simple 1776. So in their instance, a healthy 2332 street engine may cost them $20,000.

To date my most expensive engine went into a VW, not a Porsche and it tipped the scales back in 2001 and nothing has paralleled it yet cost wise. The overseas buyers are about 40% of my business today, they used to be 60% before the economy crunch that really never hit us, just changed the demographic of the buyers a bit..

 

[Hot68]

Well this post is the best I've read in a long time.  I think anyone who is even THINKING of building a moderate to high end high performance air cooled VW engine and have a nice car to put it in should read and think about what's been said in this post.  I have thought about (and bitched about) the cost to build a stout and dependable stroker motor compared to the V8 stuff and how much performance you get for your dollar.  I played in the V8 arena as well and am very aware of the costs and how much power you get for the money.  I think because of the huge V8 market, parts are MUCH cheaper.  I remember looking at the cost of a set of Scat connecting rods for a chevy and then a VW and realizing the V8 rods were cheaper even though there were four more! Same goes for crankshafts - seems a decent V8 crank will cost almost the same as a Vw crank of similar quality / manufacture.  It is as someone said -  price versus demand.  Not many people are willing to spend a lot of money to get moderate or big power out of an old VW like we are, this keeps good parts prices higher. - Not as much demand and much lower manufacturing volume = higher prices

I scrounged for almost 8 years to get the parts I wanted at prices I could afford. I was very particular about what I wanted and Many times I almost gave up.  Hell, some of the parts in my engine (82mm forged CW all Porsche journal crankshaft) are not even available anymore.  You have to find a good used one and someone willing to sell it. Or you could pay upwards of 2K for a good company to make you one.  At todays prices (if you could get the parts) the engine in my car (in parts alone) would cost 10K or more if someone built it for you.  It scares me to think about it.  Who ever would think prices for this stuff would get to this point?

For me it was / is worth it.  I've always loved these cars.  My Dad used to always say, "If you like the thing and you're going to take care of it, drive it  and keep it, it's worth it".  I know I'd lose my butt if I sold my stuff but I wouldn't think of doing that, ever.  Hopefully my son or daughter will love my car as much as they do now when they get older and will want to take it over.  That would be cool.

The 15K stroker is here and people will do it if they love it and have the means to buy it, run it, and keep it alive.

[madoski]

One thing here that may be relevant is the amount of stuff you could end up having to do to a V8 car to make it work with big V8 power.  At one time, I was going to put together a V8 Vega, then I started hearing stories about the car getting tweaked, doors no longer closing, windows popping out from too much torque, needing to brace or gusset the whole car, tub the rear end, etc.  I know you can only go so far with keeping a VW on a pan, but it seems like with a few simple things (drag brace, mid-trans mount), you can put quite a bit of power to it.  We all know that weight distribution of VWs is a lot better than with front engine cars, hence not as much need for huge slicks/narrowed rear end.  I don't know if this completely compensates for the extra cost of parts, but at least it's something we have going for us.

[bhagavan]

     I have a 71 Ghia coupe with an aging, but serviceable stock 1600 dual port.
    ive always wanted a 1914 balanced with dual somethings, a mild motor low compression, reliable but a little sirited. Ive always been drawn to the 1914, they seem like they have proven themselves in everything from drags, to baja. it seems like the most motor for the money. No engineering degree in calculating the valve train. Same width. No stroker problems. And it sounds cooler then the all too common 1776.
    Ive heard from a master biulder you cam bore the case to 92 then machine down the barrels to fit.  Any good suggestions out there?
                           bhagavan

[bhagavan]

   does anyone own a 1914 cc  powered VW out there , or know someone that does, that can comment? 
  thanks

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

I ran a 1915cc for many years. It ran low 14's in the 1/4mi with a set of 44IDF's on it.
Great motor.
You can cut the cyls down to fit into a case bored for 90.5. I have done it on a few builds w/o issues.
However, if you have the case apart, it's better to bore the case porperly.

[bhagavan]

   i remember Dominick L when I lived In H.B. in the mid 2000s
 had a 1914 with 48 IDAs, it inspired me to own a 1914 , as fairly strait forward affordable upgrade.With simpler carbs. he drove that bug all over including trips to Vegas? as I recall. Later he had a 2275 nitrous bug and I didnt se the 1914 . much is it still around and running. His 1914 proved they are reliable without a doubt! Unless otherwise.

[bhagavan]

     another thing about the 1914 Dominick built as I recall, It was from a used case, not a new one, and had no external oil cooler added.It may have had a sump  added Im not sure, but I would guess no. But a 1914 form an aligned bored case, with other used parts, Id spring for a good CW crank, probably stock heads. and an Engle 100 with Kadrons, or a 110 with dual throats.
  All seems doable, and keeping within my budget. My machinist up here refuses to bore the case to 94 so Ill have to send it so cal, maybe Jay Cees?
  Does he still do small jobs ?