Original EMPI-Built Herbie / Help With Ancient Performance Mod

[redbarnresto]

I am hoping some of you could help me out.  I have a car that was built by EMPI itself circa 1968.  Considering it a car of historical significance, I'm dead set on restoring it back to exactly how it was when they built it.  Pretty straightforward for the most part, despite some hard to find or expensive parts.  There is one challenge, though, which is the fact that they used 88.75mm Corvair pistons in it.  As you probably know, this wasn't unheard of at those times but probably hasn't been done by anyone anywhere since 1970 or so.

What I'm trying to do is find someone that was around at the time and remembers the hows and whys of doing the conversion.  It's mentioned somewhat briefly in How to Hot Rod Volkswagen Engines but not in enough detail to make me feel confident that I can do the job without more information.

I'm aware that there are far easier options and that it would be almost ludicrous to go this route, but it's what I'm set on doing and I'm excited to have what's sure to be about the only car still kicking around on this now ancient conversion.

Sincerely,
Dan

[John P]

VERY cool. You've GOT to upload pics of the car! 

[redbarnresto]

Well, some VW people love it, others hate it, but it's actually an original Herbie the Love Bug from the very first movie.  Out of 10 (maybe 11?) cars built for the film, there were two cars that were built for high-performance racing.  EMPI itself built these two cars, and mine is one of them.  I had the pleasure of knowing Chuck Smith, perhaps you've heard of him, who used to work for EMPI and remembers building the cars very well.  Unfortunately this was before I acquired the car, and Chuck sadly passed away a year or two ago.  It sure would have been great to pick his mind about it.

The engine was based on a 1500cc case and had a counterweighted crank, EMPI 831 cam, dual port heads, the mentioned Corvair pistons, and (just to really break my bank) a Judson supercharger.  The Judson was not equipped at the time of the car's "discovery" but was included in a box.  Original Disney notes state that the car (car #5) had a "blower" on the motor.

Besides that, it had a lot of EMPI and related goodies.  Original EMPI camber compensator, stiff front sway bar, transmission strap kit, Superior Control Bars, and a couple frame stiffeners up front that I'm not even sure what to call.  They bolted to the two front floor pan bolts and extended towards the axle, clamping down around it to make it rigid.

The car is seen throughout the movie and is driven almost exclusively by the very famous stunt driver Carey Loftin.  It actually raced at places like Riverside and Laguna Seca.

I hope the project isn't taken any less serious because it's a Herbie.  Being built by EMPI really makes it something that can hopefully be appreciated by any Cal-Look fan, whether they care for Disney or not.

As per my initial request, I sure hope I can find someone that can assist me with the Corvair conversion.  There must be someone out there.

Sincerely,
Dan

[John P]

That's very cool - please upload pics of some of the period performance parts, as they would be a great resource.

...and a couple frame stiffeners up front that I'm not even sure what to call.  They bolted to the two front floor pan bolts and extended towards the axle, clamping down around it to make it rigid.

Those are known as beam stiffeners, and are still available in the aftermarket. They were recommended for cars that drove on rough/off road pavement. They are HEAVY, but apparently quite effective.

You can see a modern example here:



"We are proud to present you the new CSP brace bars for all VW Beetle and Karmann Ghia (type 14) with ball joint axle or link pin axle. Based on the original special equipment of the sixties and seventies it improves axle rigidity and road performance amazingly – not only for customized cars!"

http://www.vwparts.net/CSP498001111A.html

I've sent the link to your post to two huge EMPI gurus, one a collector and another the one-time photographer back in the day.  Hopefully they may chime in.

And let's see pics!

J

[VWGLENN]

Glenn here, I was around little in 68 and have no input on this Car or it's Engine, I do remember very Early VW Magazine stuff on using Corvair Liners on VW Engines, in 68 Deano was leaving, Many Changes were taking place at EMPI, there were 3/4 Guys building Engines that year, Deano, Layton, Rudy Mayer & Darrell from Memory, you might Try Lee Layton with your Questions, and Revmaster did Odd stuff like that also, Good Hunting, GM

[redbarnresto]

Many thanks to both of you. 

VWGLENN, do you remember Chuck Smith?  He's the one that first told us about EMPI building the cars (though it makes perfect sense that they would have since they were in the general area and were the experts in the field).

I'll admit that it's a little uncertain if anyone at EMPI built the engine specifically for the car or if it was something they had sitting around.  Who can say?  It's unlikely that anyone would remember.  It's possible that work was started as early as '67.

Any ideas on how I can get in touch with Lee Layton?

Much obliged, guys.  Glad to see people taking an interest!  I'll post some pics tomorrow, I just realized that I don't really have any yet.  Like I said, I only very recently got the car.

I got the car from Darby Milnor of the greater Chicago area, who some of you might know.  He's the one that took the original engine apart.  Most of it was scrap at that point, but he understood the significance and took detailed notes on everything, which is great.  He even wrote down parts numbers off everything so that it can be recreated to nearly identical standards if wished.  As it happens, I do wish! 

Dan

[David Ward]

I believe Lee Leighton used to live in the Upland, California area years back.

[martin]

Give Facebook a try.

[redbarnresto]

I couldn't find Lee or the others mentioned but I did find Darrell Vittone.  I sent him a message.  I'm sure he's a very busy man so I wouldn't be surprised if I don't hear back from him, but what a thrill it would be if I did!

Another guy I can try to contact is Bill Fisher, though I don't see him on FB, either.

Dan

[John P]

I suggest PM'ing VWGlenn, as I believe that he keeps in contact with Lee once in awhile. Several years ago Glen was nice enough to take Richard Roth and me on the Olden Days VW Performance Nerds Tour, where he took us to see some of the old shops and players, including Lee and Fumio Fukaya. The stories were great.

Lee was definitely getting up there, but he still had a shop (at the time) and was working on engines. Still full of piss and vinegar too, and loved to talk! 

[bugnut]

That is an awesome find!  I know about the two cars built for performance; I wrote up a freelance piece for VW Trends a number of years ago on Herbie No. 2, which never ran, unfortunately, but it was the other performance-built car with a 356 Porsche engine.  Since that time it's changed owners a couple of times; not sure where it is now.
I think a car like this would be a great feature in Hot VWs, irregardless of how pristine or not that it may be. 
You won't find much love for an original Herbie over on the Samba, but if one doesn't stroke others for their immaculate stock restorations (buses especially--the split bus crowd is particularly rabid on TS, lol), you're pretty guaranteed to be ridiculed over there...from my oberservations.
Would love to see pix of the car and engine...

[redbarnresto]

Bugnut, your post is amusing to me because I know Greg Carr, the then-owner of car #2, and how irritated he is to this day that the story never ran, haha.

The car sadly went overseas and is now in the UK.  Thankfully the new owner does a lot with it.  It's not just one of those cars hidden away in the garage.

It has had the 356 engine for years but it originally had a Super 90 motor which blew at some point and was replaced. 

I'll go grab some photos for you guys right now.  I don't have any of the original engine, though, all I have is the detailed notes the previous owner, Darby, took.  Though I am expecting a package in the mail from Darby with all the pictures he ever took of the car, so hopefully there will be some of the engine.

As for thesamba, well let's just say that you'll notice I didn't post anything over there...

Dan

[bugnut]

Bugnut, your post is amusing to me because I know Greg Carr, the then-owner of car #2, and how irritated he is to this day that the story never ran, haha.

The car sadly went overseas and is now in the UK.  Thankfully the new owner does a lot with it.  It's not just one of those cars hidden away in the garage.

It has had the 356 engine for years but it originally had a Super 90 motor which blew at some point and was replaced. 

I'll go grab some photos for you guys right now.  I don't have any of the original engine, though, all I have is the detailed notes the previous owner, Darby, took.  Though I am expecting a package in the mail from Darby with all the pictures he ever took of the car, so hopefully there will be some of the engine.

As for thesamba, well let's just say that you'll notice I didn't post anything over there...

Dan

I feel bad about the story never running, but I did my part...lol.  But then again, VW Trends is long gone, so there you have it.  I do believe there would be interest in a story on such a historical and unique car, as while I love reading about all sorts of VWs, the piecemeal checkbook builds get kind of old after awhile, ('First the engine was shipped to builder X, and then the body sent to body ace 'Y', etc etc).
I was pretty busy with college at the time I wrote the story about Herbie No. 2, so putting the story together was especially challenging for me due to time constraints, but I'd really hoped it would have been printed, but those are the breaks, I guess.

[redbarnresto]

Greg has a job in journalism himself, and I know he would never blame you.

Okay, here's some pics.  First, these are some of the suspension goodies.  Some are the originals, a couple items are replacements which match what the car had exactly.  As you can see, I'm missing a couple pieces of the original transmission strap kit.


I also included the pedal assembly in the pic above because you guys would probably think it was neat.  We have been told that many of the race cars at EMPI (even the Inch Pincher itself?) had the clutch pedal bent out further from the brake like this so that there was less "pedal confusion."  Herbie #2 and #5 (the two race-prepped Herbies), therefore, both got the same treatment.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?  Pretty cool, whatever the story.

Maybe some of you can shine light on this?  It's a huge gas tank, maybe 15 or 20 gallons.  Certainly seems built with the VW in mind as it fits right in the spot and overall maintains the appearance of a VW tank.


A few general shots of the car.  The exterior has had a lot of body work done and has been painted and striped, but the interior has basically been untouched thus far.  My vision for the car is a little different than the previous owner's was, so I'm actually going to be redoing a lot of what was done, including repainting it a different shade of white and redoing the stripes and numbers a little more accurately.





Finally, here's a couple screen grabs from the DVD of the exact car itself.  It's easiest to spot by looking for the dented apron.  The apron was since repaired, but you guys are probably already getting the idea that I'm a detail freak, which means I'll be taking a hammer to it again...  I just can't help myself.  The car MUST be EXACTLY how it was during filming.




Dan

[bugnut]

Awesome!  Love to see cars like this come up... the Bugpack padded trans strap kit is the exact design as what you've got there; I have one on my '70 Bug in anticipation of the 2017 engine I'm putting together, but just the nose cone/front mount.

[John P]

VERY cool - keep the pics coming. I believe that the transmission strap is an original Crown unit, as it matches my Crown (from memory). You can tell that it's a Crown because you could substitute it for a boat anchor.

You also appear to have an original EMPI sway bar (3/4"?)

I LOVE the pedal assembly, and have never seen that. I guess all of the drivers back then had HUGE shoes.  

But the gas tank is the piece de resistance - that is f#$%^#&g cool! Is that a leather strap holding it in? I hope metal.

The apron was since repaired, but you guys are probably already getting the idea that I'm a detail freak, which means I'll be taking a hammer to it again...  I just can't help myself.  The car MUST be EXACTLY how it was during filming.

I like your style.  

Please include more detailed photos. This Forum has always been about Cal-Look/Performance Street Cars, and those are some cool parts. I'd love to see more detailed photos of the wheels, both inside and out. 14" steel centers with a welded wider rim?

[bugnut]

I know that there have been some extra capacity gas tanks made over the years, dont' know who originated it though?  My guess would be someone in the off-road racing realm, but who knows?

[redbarnresto]

Thanks, guys.  I'll take some more photos, just give me some time.  I appreciate the enthusiasm!

These are replacement wheels.  They, like the originals, are 15" stock centers welded into 6" rims.  The original wheels are long gone because this car was also used in the second movie, Herbie Rides Again, in which all the cars had stock skinnies.  The only original The Love Bug wheels known to still exist are on car #2 which we mentioned.  It's the only known car to appear only in the first movie and no others.  The Love Bug roll bar is the exact same story.  They were removed for HRA and the only one known to still be kicking is in #2.

Speaking of the roll bar, I believe they were probably made by Disney because they're somewhat crude, but maybe EMPI built them?  All the cars had one for continuity, even if they weren't race-prepped.  Anyone recognize it?  Best seen here during the film's climax with the hilarious Buddy Hackett.  They are four point bars, having a support on either side that extended back and bolted to the rear wheel wells.



Dan

[jgerock]

How timely! 

Picture of my two favorites together from the "Monte Carlo" movie.  Herbie and a BMW 2002ti

[redbarnresto]

Haha, nice.  Both The Love Bug and Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo are packed with actual race cars, some of them somewhat well known in certain circles.  Also, a little known fact, but the yellow hot rod from Happy Days is in TLB as well.

I actually owned a Monte Carlo Herbie myself.  TLB was always my favorite movie, though, so when #5 came up for sale my only option was to sell the MC car to fund it.  No money or room for both. 

Here's my old car.  It was in Monte Carlo and Herbie Goes Bananas.  It's car #12.  EMPI only worked on the cars for the original film The Love Bug.  The race-prepped cars for MC were built by Speed Unlimited (though #12 isn't one of them).



Dan

[John P]

It looks like Porsche 356 brakes? What other mods did it have?

[redbarnresto]

None of the cars pictured are equipped with Porsche brakes, though coincidentally the Porsche-powered car, #2, mentioned above did have 356 brakes.  It also had pretty much the same suspension goodies that my car had.

My car did have beefed up brakes, though I still need to talk to Darby about what exactly they were.  Something like Type III shoes? 

Dan

[jgerock]

This car was at the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix in 2009 (both BMW and VW were featured marques)





Here's my Malaga BMW waiting for our "lap" around the course.

[redbarnresto]

That's my good friend's, Albert's, car. His is car #6 from TLB and was basically a remote control car for the most dangerous stunt driving requirements. Our cars should basically be identical twins, though they'll appear a little different due the ways they were restored.

As for the original issue of the Corvair pistons, I still haven't had much luck. I did talk to Dave Griener of Proformance Racing who said he remembers people doing it but never did himself. He agreed with what Fisher says in his book. I guess it's a "simple" matter of opening up the connecting rod bushings to accept the bigger piston pins and custom machining some buttons to hold the pins in place in the piston. You use the 88.75mm Corvair pistons in a set of 88mm cylinders meant for a VW.  Sounds impossible but evidently it works, though some honing might be necessary. That's really all it says so I wanted to double check that there's nothing more involved with someone that knows. I haven't talked to anyone that does, though, so Patrick down at Rimco agreed to rewrite the book on it with me when I collect the parts.

Dan

[gbw]

the corvair uses a smaller wrist pin than a vw. you will have to press a bushing inside of vw bushing and then size it. the corvair culinder will need two of the head stud grooves remachined to match the vw. the cylders are also a little shoter, so you'll have to make barrel shims. hope this helps
garth
*(i used to build performance corvair engines)

[redbarnresto]

Garth, that helps a whole lot!  The plan at current is to use the 88mm VW cylinders, so I'm not worried about how to modify the Corvair ones to work. From what I understand it's quite a bit more involved to use the Corvair ones.  I'll keep it in mind, though.  

Okay, the piston pin is smaller not bigger, gotcha.  How exactly are the piston pins held in on the Corvair?  I just don't understand the need to machine custom buttons.  Why not use whatever method the Corvair originally used?

Dan

[gbw]

corvairs were just like the v8's.  the pins pressed into the connecting rod and the piston just floated on it

[amchair67]

Hey Dan, I am pretty sure that I owned your car just prior to Darby-for a very brief period, and that a very close friend owned it before me, for several years. I will try to send you a pm

[redbarnresto]

Thanks again, Mike!

I just talked amchair67 who used to own this car.  I love when things like that happen!  Totally made my night.

Dan

[florIDA 63]

Small world, the vw circle...

[rockerarm]

Hey Dan, give EMS a call, 310-641-7019. Bill Duncan and Dick Nuss are the "go to guys" machine shop and one of their regular customers is a Corvair enthusiast. Were in the Los Angeles area.
Since Disney is in this area, I thought Tom Coy @ Speed Unlimited had some input to the running gear of the Herbie cars? Tom Coy is still around in my area here.
Hope this helps, Bill.