Engle W-series with 1.4:1 rockers

[Baddvw]

Hey guys I have my engine together and running tonight and still needs to do some tuning and boy...she sounds SWEET!! Anyways, I have a question about some other buggies that are running them Engle W-110 and W-120 cams with 1.4:1 Pauter rockers, I heard that is what they are running, but don't know for sure. If that is possible, what can it do to the heads due to the low duration @0.50" and high lift and also to mention the wear on the lifter bores?? There is also a buggy that I know for a fact that is running a VZ-15 with 1.25:1 rockers (2387cc) and he's got some monster torque in low and mid-range and it runs like a raped ape and another one that ran a 110 cam with 1.5:1 roller rockers (2498cc) for 11 years!! What do you guys think?? Thanks, Chad

[markvo]

NO

[1slick67]

Really bad for valve train.I would not do it.

[perrib]

If your heads flow well use on of the FK 40 cams instead. Thoes engines are using 1.25 and 1.5 cams are for a 200 foot drag race up a steep hill. I put 1.4s on a W130 by accident and it ate the valve guides and lifter bores in one weekend at Glamis. Expensive mistake.
Engle cams for use with 1.4 or 1.5:1 rocker arms
FK-41   269º   239º   0,364"    9,25   108º   New cam
   14ºBTDC   46ºABDC   50ºBBDC   10ºATDC      .050 check, (Gross cam lift 0,364" 240º)
FK-42   275º   245º   0,373"    9,47   108º   New cam
   18ºBTDC   48ºABDC   54ºBBDC   12ºATDC      .050 check, (Gross cam lift 0,373" 246º)
FK-43   281º   250º   0,383"    9,83   108º   New cam
FK-44   287º   256º   0,391"    9,93   108º

[tyroneshoelaces]

What's the limit for the ratio of rockers to use with the W110?

 I've got a 1904 here that I put together many, many years ago that I just recently started messing with again and finally got running as I'm just getting back into aircooled after a 12 year hiatus. I've got a 110 cam and my buddy looked at my stock rockers and they were shot so I ordered a set of these at 1.3 to 1. Do you guys think my heads aren't long for the world if I run the cam? www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1371
The engle catalog listed the 110 with 1.25 rockers so I went with the ratio rockers. Originally when I built the engine I thought it would be my daily driver but now I want a more aggresive motor as it's a weekend warrior.

The engine has only run on the stand and it revs like mad. I was excited but now

Also, I'm on single heavy duty springs, but have to pull the heads off soon to deal with an oil leak and spacer issue. Switch to duals?

[Baddvw]

I know that it may sound "impossible", but what can it do to the heads even if you got them with VW 650 springs and longer valves (+.100") I read alot about them drag engines running modified heads that will push them valves over .600" and I am talking about .550"-.590" total lift at the valves, not the cam. I have personally seen this buggy ran with Engle W-110 cam with 1.5:1 rockers and he ran them for 11 years without touching the heads and not only them words came from the owner, there is a lot of people that know him said the same thing on what he runs. I am all about torque and I cannot let the bottom end go to gain some top end, I do know that if you keep the duration low @.050" like in the 245-250 range and have a good amount of lift, it will widen up the powerband and have super-low torque and very well mid and high range. I have been looking at the charts, how can it tear up the lifter bores if the final lift is only at the rockers??? Does it do something to the heads and then trasmits it towards the lifters? Let's just say that I am running a W-110 cam with 1.25:1, it is 247 duration @.050" and .392" lift AT the cam and will give the total lift of .490" and total lift of .545" with the 1.4:1 rockers and a total lift of .588" with 1.5:1 rockers. If you look at the big cam s like the FK-87 and FK-89 and you will see that the total lift is almost the same as the W-110 with the rockers listed and only difference is that the duration is higher @.050", just to make sure....the W-110 will not work with the 1.4:1 rockers is because the duration is too low? Please help me understand this and explain why it could not work. Thanks again, Chad

[JVance]

Just do it and tell us how it works out.

[Turbo2Go]

Its about how the cam is ground to work with a ratio rocker or a stock rocker.To the guys who are claiming to run a w-110 with 1.5 rockers and have it live that long,I say B.S.Why not use a cam that is designed for a ratio rocker.Better yet why not have a cam custom ground for your application.

[Baddvw]

Well guys, it has been almost a year now and I have been running this "experimental" engine for 7 months now with a 90mm full circle crank w/type 4 mains, wiseco pistons (94mm) and the same Street Eliminator heads that I stated in the previous posts. I have also been running the Engle W-110 cam with the 1.4 roller rockers too in this engine and the performance is flawless and never missed a beat since, it has tons of torque and a pretty mild top end, I have hit the rev limiter several times (set at 7200) and keeps going right on strong. I sent the long block back to the builder to do a check to see how it went on the inside, I got a call from him a few weeks later and told me that everything looks good as new the day he put it together and was really surprised it worked well, there you go folks, it works for me. Thanks Chad

[Sam]

 

Most guys I have seen running the W series cams with 1.4's are running them on something like a 2332 with stock heads. Its a shame your wasting an otherwise great engine. You should really look at a FK40 series cam. You can play with advancing or retarding the cam to move the powerband up and down. Also grinders like SLR can grind on 106 degree centers to promote torque.

[Baddvw]

No shame here, I do not regret trying this at all, I think I have proven this myself that this is true that such application will work, I know that I should have run a fk series cam on such setup, but I am in the middle of finding the ultimate off road torquer cam and still have awesome top end, I am thinking of having one custom grind for the roller lifters to be somewhere like a fk-43/fk-8 combo with 107 degree centers. Them heads I'm running are not your ordinary S/E heads, they have been ported and modified with titanium valves and have been done so to where it looks like you're running decent heads but performs like a set of 910 autocrafts, that is one way of hiding what you really have from the other woodsbuggy riders, I like the element of surprises.   

[Sam]

I run a SLR XR302, on 106 degree centers. It makes power from 2500 to 8000. I really couldn't ask for more.    Keep your compression up in the 12's and you will like the 290+duration cams in the big engine.

[Baddvw]

Ok, I'll look into this, thanks man

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

To answer your real question about "why not?".
Cam lobe shapes  determine not only the timing of the events and lift, but also the RATES of acceleration of the valve trane componnets.
You cannot "snap" the valve's open and shut instantly. It takes an "S" curve: accel open, max speed, then decell open, full lift, accel down, max speed, then decell down for a soft landing on the seat.
There's lots going on when you get down beyond just the #'s of a cam. There is a science to the lobe design an the accel / decel rates.
If you use more than the designed rocker ratio, you will go beyond the design accel/decell rates. This leads to valve float and parts breakage.
Doesn't really matter much about the duration #'s and total lift. Even a "mild" cam can over accelerate the valves.

Personally, I like to use rocker ratios equal or less than the maximim designed.
for drag racing FK-89 with 1.4's is one that seems to last forever and doesn't seem to suffer float issues even with weak springs.  328 duration and only .545" (actual meaured) lift.

[maui]

I remember way back in the 70s had a few bugs in Honolulu with E110 with 1.5s and big valve heads in 2180s and stock trans and slicks was doing low 13s until the trans brake.