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65bug
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« on: February 19, 2011, 11:12:46 am » |
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Good Morning everyone, Ok, so last night I was dead tired. I decided anyway to work in the garage and listen to the rain and work on my motor. I figured I would start at the bottom on my Berg sump. Since the shroud is off, carbs/manifolds are off and the cooler is off. My little project was to take off my Scat billet plate, clean it all up and install my new OEM oil intake screen. So, I take off the plate with the acorn nuts and gently pop the plate off. Through the sump, I see my Berg cow magnet and got a little wrench on the clamp to remove it. I realized it was not clamped onto the pick up tube high enough to allow the screen to seat onto the pick up tube all the way. So far so good. I take it off, and clean it up. Reinstall up higher and test fit the intake screen with the plate. Upon test fitting, I see now that I am cutting it close on the amount of thread for these cheapo SCAT acorn nuts that came with the billet plate. But there's enough! This refreshed my memory from the last time!!!!! Too much threads from the Berg sump studs and I will not be able to tighten them down far enough to seal the plate. So, I get out some high temp gasket sealant and coat the gaskets with a thin coat. I start to assemble. Two of the acorn nuts strip out on me. I am using a 1/4 drive snap on ratchet and socket. HA! HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO BET THESE ACORN NUTS ARE FROM CHINA? ANYTIME I HAVE EVER USED SCAT PARTS IT COMES BACK TO BITE ME IN THE ASS. NEVER FAILS........ Alright, so what do you guys use and whats your opinion??? Stock sump plate with stock nuts?? I do not have either. However, I am over the billet drain plate look!!! But I do like the magnetic drain plug. Thanks for reading and I appreciate any opinions and help  |
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garyj
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 01:03:16 pm » |
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I use a Rocky Jennings billet sump plate with "Realgaskets" silicone seal with a Berg 4 qt. sump on my race motor. The Rocky Jennings piece is NICE and comes with appropriate hardware. On my street car (84x94 190hp) I use a Berg 4 qt. with (you're not going to like this) Scat sump plate and the same "Realgaskets" silicone seal. The "Realgaskets" seal goes on dry with (I believe) 10 inch pounds of torque and NO LEAKS. I'll get you pics and part numbers, if you're interested.
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65bug
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 01:07:25 pm » |
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garyj,
Thank you very much. IF you have the part numbers that would be great! Is it a special gasket? I have never seen them.
Thank you
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garyj
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 01:21:32 pm » |
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I'll pm you later with info. The company that the gaskets come from specialize in aircraft gaskets. They kinda diversified a few years ago. Check you regular email later today.
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wayne harron
Junior
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Posts: 109
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 04:27:50 pm » |
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Gary I would like that info as well. Sounds like a nice leak free set up.
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PEP Transmissions
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Donny B.
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 05:29:18 pm » |
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I use a Tim Tesnow billet sump plate with o-ring seals. Can't use the stock screen with it though.
I also have 3 1/2 quart Berg sump with an o-ring seal to the engine case. Bone dry!
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Donny B.
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jgerock
Junior
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Posts: 183
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 11:07:48 am » |
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I have a "early" Berg 1.5 quart sump on my engine that uses the stock VW paper gaskets, stock sump plate and acorn nuts. The sump plate doesn't leak but I think my sump-to-case sealing needs improving.
The Berg sump I have doesn't have the reliefs in the bottom opening to make it easier to tighten the hardware. It was tough to get a wrench and my hand in there.
I too am using the Berg "cow" magnet clamped to the pickup tube. No inlet screen on my engine but I am running a full flow Berg setup with Fram HP1 filter.
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Jim Gerock
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65bug
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 11:49:45 am » |
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jgerock,
One of the problems with the Berg sump is that they never bother to mention if you should lok-tite those nuts. I just took my sump apart and the nuts where not the tightest.
I used green loc tite this time. Just a tad to keep them from backing out.
I also installed a screen per Bruce Tweddle's recommendation and a few others on here. You will have to slide your cow magnet up a tad higher on the pick up tube.
You can get a nice new VW oem screen from Cb Performance. Bruce told me to use a screen. It's cheap insurance for your motor to protect it.
I am going to change my Fram filter to a Mobile1 Synthetic. The Mobile one filters down to I believe less then 5 microns. Thats a big difference as far as oil cleanliness......
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KAFUR1
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 12:25:20 pm » |
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garyj,
Thank you very much. IF you have the part numbers that would be great! Is it a special gasket? I have never seen them.
Thank you
wolfsburg west sells them ! they are great place to buy parts from FAST SHIPPING ! |
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so67vw
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 01:14:57 pm » |
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I use a stock plate myself with the paper.... I have been using the same setup for over 15 years now and have never had a leak (at least not "there").... I use a bolt from the block side down and lock tight it in... That keeps you from pulling that little stud or it losening up.... The sump with oil in it is actualy pretty heavy so it is a good procautionary step for somthing mounted off the center of a small ring.... Whatever plat you use make sure it is true and the sump is true before you mess with it... I've some new stamped plates give me trouble....
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"insignificant other"
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QuickKafer
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 03:39:18 pm » |
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I also have 3 1/2 quart Berg sump with an o-ring seal to the engine case. Bone dry!
That's cool! Is the case mating surface machined for a groove or just the top of the sump? Scott Faivre |
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Donny B.
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2011, 01:24:27 am » |
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That's cool! Is the case mating surface machined for a groove or just the top of the sump? The sump is machined for the o-ring and seals against the case. I have the same situation with the sump plate. Works great! |
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Donny B.
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jgerock
Junior
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Posts: 183
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 07:32:30 pm » |
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jgerock,
One of the problems with the Berg sump is that they never bother to mention if you should lok-tite those nuts. I just took my sump apart and the nuts where not the tightest.
I used green loc tite this time. Just a tad to keep them from backing out.
I also installed a screen per Bruce Tweddle's recommendation and a few others on here. You will have to slide your cow magnet up a tad higher on the pick up tube.
You can get a nice new VW oem screen from Cb Performance. Bruce told me to use a screen. It's cheap insurance for your motor to protect it.
I am going to change my Fram filter to a Mobile1 Synthetic. The Mobile one filters down to I believe less then 5 microns. Thats a big difference as far as oil cleanliness......
Thanks for the advice. I'll double check those super long nuts before I put the cylinder heads on. |
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Jim Gerock
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fifty-five
Junior
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Posts: 218
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 10:38:50 pm » |
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I use a stock plate, paper gaskets, and instead of using studs and nuts, I run allen head bolts with lock washers. Mine's dry
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1955 Ragtop
2276 under the deck turbo
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QuickKafer
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 10:52:33 pm » |
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I use a stock plate, paper gaskets, and instead of using studs and nuts, I run allen head bolts with lock washers. Mine's dry
Probably looks neat as heck! Just be very careful. The studs were designed to take the wear and tear of taking the plate on and off consistently over the life of the engine to perform the routine oil changes and maintenance. The case was not. BE SUPER CAREFUL to not cross thread or over tighten your allen head bolts, or you will discover some new very colorful vocabulary in short order! Scott Faivre |
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Bruce Tweddle
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2011, 12:17:55 am » |
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Todd, I'll give you one guess what type of sump plate I use.
The gaskets sold by the dealer in Mexico are not simple paper like all the US sellers push. Those paper ones all leak. The VW of Mex gaskets are a high density waxy type material, so they don't absorb oil. The result is 100% DRY plates all the time.
Normally, I would view the sump plate as a part to last the life of the car. However, lately I have been replacing them every 5-10 changes. They're about $1.80 each from the dealer, that's why.
Long ago I used to use my calibrated wrist to torque the nuts. I always had warped plates. Now I use my in-lb torque wrench at 60 in-lbs. The plates never warp and they don't leak.
You also have to make sure you are using copper sealing washers. Not one single oil change kit includes copper washers. They all supply steel washers that are copper plated. IMO, that's a big reason why they all leak.
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65bug
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2011, 10:55:12 am » |
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Bruce,
Thanks for the great info! I did manage to get my old acorn nuts off my 1300 cc motor and used those.
I will eventually get me some original plates. Lookin for a bag of goodies from the upcoming bug-in.
Great information Bruce! Thanks!
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neil68
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 06:18:19 pm » |
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Ditto for the Wolfsburg West silicone drain plate seals. Using those along with a Bugpack aluminum plate (doesn't warp like a stocker).
Bruce makes a good point about copper washers. I found a large stack of OEM Made in West Germany gasket kits years ago with proper copper washers, so keep your eyes open at swap meets, as they're usually cheap and will last for years/decades.
Getting back to the silicone seals, they also work well with a 3.5 qt sump-to-case sealing as well (in my case a Berg sump).
At one of the tracks where I race, the tech inspectors and starters have complimented me on my Beetle...saying how nice it was to see some cars with zero oil drips (most of the V8's were apparently dripping a bit, which always leads to arguments about whether they should be permitted to race).
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Neil.
'68 Beetle 2332 cc
12.8 sec. @ 104 MPH
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65bug
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 06:53:12 pm » |
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Neil,
I had my motor pretty good and thought I had a front seal leak. It turned out to be the chinese doghouse oil cooler adapter!
So, it's replaced with a OEM one now. I should be good to go now!
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Bruce Tweddle
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 11:25:33 pm » |
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I found a large stack of OEM Made in West Germany gasket kits years ago with proper copper washers, Test them with a magnet. So far, I have never seen any kit that had copper washers. |
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Matt Schlicht
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 12:31:51 pm » |
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Todd, I'll give you one guess what type of sump plate I use.
The gaskets sold by the dealer in Mexico are not simple paper like all the US sellers push. Those paper ones all leak. The VW of Mex gaskets are a high density waxy type material, so they don't absorb oil. The result is 100% DRY plates all the time.
Normally, I would view the sump plate as a part to last the life of the car. However, lately I have been replacing them every 5-10 changes. They're about $1.80 each from the dealer, that's why.
Long ago I used to use my calibrated wrist to torque the nuts. I always had warped plates. Now I use my in-lb torque wrench at 60 in-lbs. The plates never warp and they don't leak.
You also have to make sure you are using copper sealing washers. Not one single oil change kit includes copper washers. They all supply steel washers that are copper plated. IMO, that's a big reason why they all leak.
Who sells the Mex gaskets? |
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71 super 2 liter
73 beetle first car
66 project
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Ohio Tom (DdK)
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 09:38:24 pm » |
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I do a few simple tricks.
Here is my method I use on most hi/po builds with Full flow oil filtration and deep sumps (and ideas behind them)
I take the stock style paper gasket and rub Ultra Black permatex into it. All over including the inner and outer edges. Leave no part of the gasket un-coated. It's important to seal up the gasket because oil will wick right thru them.
I use one gasket (no stock screen).
Make sure flatten the stock style sump plate. I use a ball peen hammer (with a little skill) I can get them very flat. Cleanup rest with a file.
I like to use Socket Head Cap Screws in place of the studs and use a dab of sealant on the threads (not RTV).
I make my own oil pickup extension out of 1/2" EMT conduit (cheap and right size). I make them long enough to touch the bottom of the sump plate. I then cut the tube at a hard slice angle so that only the tip touches the sump plate (this makes sure it can never fall off).
This also reduces oil starvation problems. Gives you about 3/4" more oil level before sucking air (and hurting rod bearings).
I'd much rather change an oil pump once in a while over rod bearings.
I look at the oil pump as an expendable item for the sake of overall reliability in a Hi/Po build.
Bruce is right that real copper gaskets are hard to find. I actually save them off old stockers because used copper work better than the new (crappy) ones.
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Ohio Tom Simpson. Home of the Killa' Bee.
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65bug
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 11:21:17 pm » |
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Tom,
Thanks for the great tips! So whats teh reasoning behind the "Copper" washers??? Is the softer copper helping seat the acorn nuts so they don't back off?
I too got the cheaper paper gaskets not knowing about the better ones until Bruce commented on it.
I did coat them with high temp RTV just like you do. I now run a screen so I had to use two of them.
What a pain the ass..............
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Bruce Tweddle
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2011, 12:30:04 am » |
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Matt, go over to the Samba and look up user "Antonio Trejo". He will sell you any genuine VW part in VW of Mexico's inventory. First, you should ask him if the currently available gaskets are a dark grey type material. Sometimes VW changes suppliers, which may change the sealing performance. While you're ordering from him, make it worth your while. Get a few sump plates. Valve cover gaskets that fit. Genuine engine gasket sets. etc. ... whats teh reasoning behind the "Copper" washers??? Is the softer copper helping seat the acorn nuts so they don't back off? The soft copper seals the space between the nut and the drain plate. Steel is much too hard to deform to seal anything. |
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Matt Schlicht
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2011, 10:45:38 pm » |
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Matt, go over to the Samba and look up user "Antonio Trejo". He will sell you any genuine VW part in VW of Mexico's inventory. First, you should ask him if the currently available gaskets are a dark grey type material. Sometimes VW changes suppliers, which may change the sealing performance.
While you're ordering from him, make it worth your while. Get a few sump plates. Valve cover gaskets that fit. Genuine engine gasket sets. etc.
The soft copper seals the space between the nut and the drain plate. Steel is much too hard to deform to seal anything.
Thanks for the information Bruce. I'll check him out. |
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71 super 2 liter
73 beetle first car
66 project
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