Anyone AutoCross/Auto-X? Classing & Modifications questions inside

[60newrag]

I picked up a 07 WRX Wagon this summer as my driver, and intended to Auto-X the car as well.  After a couple events I'm hooked.  I would love to pick up an STI and build up a auto-x-specific car to beat on.  But, funds are short.

I resto-modded/pro-toured my '60 ragtop a couple years ago and have since put less than 200 miles on it.  I've tried to sell it but just can't justify taking a big loss on the car, but also have too much fun driving the WRX on a daily basis to drive the bug.


Anyway, my thoughts are to re-build the ragtop as a purpose-built auto-x car.  I don't want to get too crazy and end up in "Modified" class as I know I'll never compete with modified STIs, Evos, and the other various off-the-hook cars around here including an Ariel Atom.  The addition of dropped spindles and/or narrowed beam modifies suspension geometry, apparently placing the car in "Modified".



Is anyone auto-xing their VW? What class are you in? What modifications have you done? What are your plans for future mods/classing?



The problem I'm up against is that my current driver-type suspension setup will naturally place me in Modified class.  Forget about engine - just the fact that I have a narrowed beam and spindles, I'm in Modified.

As it sits right now"

- '60 Bug, all OE metal except for front Danish fenders, OE ragtop.
- Rancho Pro Street tranny, stock axles, basic build. Swing Axle.
- STOCK '72 1600 (dual port, dual relief). Engine's tired, and if possible I'll throw in a 2110.
- 30mm rear torsions, KYB Gas Adjust rear shocks, slightly lowered.
- 4" narrowed front beam, CB dropped spindles.
- 4-wheel discs.
- Dual circuit MC.
- 17x7" BRMs.
- All stock interior redone in one-off kit from Sewfine - will probably install fixed-back race seats, black carpet, door panels, etc.
- Will install roll bar and harnesses.



Anyway, just wondering if anyone has built up a car for Auto-X?  What were you classed in? What modifications did they ding you for?  Is it worth it?  Were you at all competitive with the VW?

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

Probably not going to find too many Auto cross guys here.
I take my Porsche 944 autocross'ing for fun in the summer.
It's at a local parking lot and it's all just for fun (no classes).
Sorry I can't offer much advice.

Sounds like you are well on your way to making a competative car.
Bigger rear torsions, brakes, and all the other things you have so far are great mods to do.
Just remember that VW's are "tail heavy" and like to drift thier way thru the turns.
Front end traction will depend greatly on the amount of weight transfer. i.e. you will have great steering reaction when braking, however, this will turn to under-steer as you accelerate.
Look up some reading on Porsche 911 driving styles, they are very similar in weight distribution.
if you can work with this, you can really do some impressive driving.
A stout 2110 will really make a difference.

[60newrag]

I was writing up a post to post on the local Subaru club's forum - a bunch of top local Auto-Xers, one of the local SCCA techs, etc. on there so I thought it would be a good source of info/insight.

Researched the SCCA rules enough to find that the Bug would be in a Street Modified class, with weight limitations - based on a 2110 engine, the car would have to way no less than 2050! Not going to be able to add 500 or so pounds of balast, so it's not worth bothering


I knew there weren't many (if any) Auto-Xers around here, but I remember a video posted up here years ago of a sweet cal-look car running through some cones.

Crappy thing is I have a catless downpipe and lightened flywheel on the WRX already, and didn't know at when I purchased/installed them and went to a Stage 2 tune I'd be classing myself out of STX.



I'm pretty sure the rag wouldn't be too tail happy with the 245/40x17 Dunlop Star Specs I was planning to put on it.

[bowen71]

Get rid of the standard beetle and get you a 71-72 Super if you want good handling.  It will keep up with a Porsche.

I have a 71 Super with a 2110 and it is set up to handle the corners.  You cant get any better than a Super for Auto-X



205x40x17 up front
225x45x17 in the rear
7/8 front sway
3/4 rear sway
MAXX Struts
4 wheel disc Slotted and Drilled
Poly bushings all around
With a strut tower brace

My next venture will be stiffer torsion bars for the rear and KYB's

But it pulls like a train, stops on a dime and rides like its on rails

2110 150hp 144lb @ 5500rpm

[60newrag]

Front end traction will depend greatly on the amount of weight transfer. i.e. you will have great steering reaction when braking, however, this will turn to under-steer as you accelerate.

BTW, thanks for the reply Tom.  Weight transfer is one of the things I wasn't too worried about - the torsions and rear shocks should have the rear end under control, and if I keep the front mild it should brake drop and stick well - Konis would help with that, as well as only running the narrowed beam for stiffer springs. Narrowed beams are not allowed per SCCA rules though

[60newrag]

Get rid of the standard beetle and get you a 71-72 Super if you want good handling.  It will keep up with a Porsche.

I have a 71 Super with a 2110 and it is set up to handle the corners.  You cant get any better than a Super for Auto-X

To be quite honest, my intention was actually driving the car I have - I put 30 miles on the rag this year!  I'd put more than that on it if I trailered it to every Auto-X event, and drove around the ~1 mile course with no run-no-points runs after!

I have always thought about picking up a Super.  Unfortunately, we need to smog anything post -67 here in Nevada, so it's not really worthwhile to build one.

And, I don't think I'd be able to build a Super that'd be as quick and controlled around the cones as the WRX.

[Darth Weber]

60newrag, there's a fair amount of info floating around about suspension mods for auto-x and road racing. I've found a lot on ShopTalkForums. This is a very good thread to read: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=127619   Actually, do a search and read anything by FJ Camper, he's very knowledgable on all aspects of VW suspensions including the older swing axle/link pin.

You don't say where you're located but if you're anywhere near Road Atlanta this may interest you:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=133335

[fiatdude]

I was gonna recommend the first thread that Darth Weber posted -- very good read and those guys do go fast.

[Just_Dave]

If it were me, I would auto-x the car as it sits now, or as you want to modify it.  Whatever class you get put in, is what it is.  I think the fun will come from competing towards FTD (Fastest Time of the Day).  As you get better and or tweak the car, you'll noticed you'll move closer to FTD.  You don't have to compete against the cars in your class if you don't want to.

Also, I believe the NASA auto-x series doesn't use classes, they use a points system.  The base car starts at so many points, and you add points for mods you do.  They then classify you by the amount of points you have.  It was designed for cars like yours, that aren't built for specific classes.

[blue manx]

 ;)I used to race a dune buggy at the autox and I was into mod no matter what I didn't do! I was definitely not the slowest or the fastest but a lot of fun! Find a similar timed car no matter what and race them and have fun comparing and improving your times and driving style. Back in the 70's and early 80's it was no problem to build a bug that would beat all the cars of the day! Remember the suspension technology of the time was already 40 years old at that time and things have really come a long way since then! PS put in the 2110

[John P]

I agree with Just Dave - if funds are tight, don't put any more money into the car. Just use it as is - forget about being competitive right now and just learn how to drive it. Get a season under your belt and then make decisions.

I have limited autocross experience (from 20 years ago), so take this for what it's worth.

- '71 Super Beetle Convertible
- Mild 2017 engine (same engine - with changes - that's still in my '67)
- Lowered 2 inches (all around), 205/50s on the rear, 195/50s on the front
- 7/8 inch front sway bar, 3/4 inch rear
- adjustable coil overs in the rear, uprated struts in front + higher spring rate on front strut coils
- 3.88 R&P with stock gears

I agree with the above post that Super Beetles are a great handling car, but more so for high speed track use. My gut tells me that a swing axle would be a better autocross car, especially in stock class. Why? The biggest problem in an autocross is understeer and weight transfer (as Tom noted), and swing axle cars allow you to "steer with the rear" and get you through the corners faster (with practice), getting the power down sooner. Point and shoot.

PLUS swing axle cars weigh quite a bit less than Super Beetles, which you really notice (along with the shorter gears in a swing axle).  

For example, my '67 Cal-Look Bug handles really well, even with useless 135s on the front and skinny 175s on the rear. The only modifications are: 2.5 inch lowered front spindles, NOS Koni shocks front and rear and an original EMPI camber compensator. To be clear, it is much more nervous at the limit - not for the faint of heart - but that is an asset in most short, tight autocross courses, IMHO. And with less weight and shorter gears it really rockets out of the corners.  

If you enjoy it, and want to be competitive, I would later try for stock class. Get rid of those giant, boat-anchor rims, which kill your acceleration. A smaller 15 inch rim with low profile tires makes a huge difference. They also effectively lower your overall gear ratio, which is a real asset on an autocross course. Koni shocks painted to look stock (they were, in fact, a dealer option if the buyer wanted Heavy Duty shocks, and I believe were painted grey). Take as much weight out of the car as you can. Focus on being smooooooth - momentum, momentum, momentum! And practice.

Read 356 autocross posts as well, as the cars are very similar.

Plus, as Gene Berg was famous for saying, if you get beat, who cares, you're driving a Beetle. But if you beat someone, "Dude, you just got your ass whopped by a Beetle!"

MAKE SURE that you are running a deep sump, or you will write-off bearings (don't ask)!  

My 1.5 cents.

John

P.S. I don't have any photos of me autocrossing my '71 Super, but the attached photo is of the original owner autocrossing my '71 911. I had a chance to do a couple of fun laps at Lime Rock this Fall, and the car is bone stock (down to the nerdy 185/70 XWXs and "S" suspension). A lot of the cars were modified, but I promise you that they weren't having any more fun than I was. Plus, with skinny tires I get to saw back and forth with the giant steering wheel and feel like Fangio!  

I've also attached a photo of the original owner autocrossing his factory hill climb Porsche 356 Speedster way back in the day.

[superdrag]

I have been out of autocrossing for awile now, but last I knew, ANY engine displacement increase automatically put you in modified class.  E mod is what they put me in.  That is one of the reasons I got out of it, I wasn't competitive in E mod, but I WILL NOT drive a 1600 on the street just to be in a prepared class.

[VW NOT V8]

If you want or need advice or direction to setup and race a swingaxle ACVW, then look up Bill & Diane Cadenhead: http://racerswanted.com/index_files/instructors.htm  &  http://www.sdsolo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11785 

Bill was the SCCA EP National Champion for several years.

I was very fortunate to have witnessed Bill & Diane racing in their element @ Naval Air Station Point Mugu in the mid 1990's. It was truly amazing to watch these racers maneuver their '67 Bug through the 180° switchbacks, rocketing from corner to corner, massive over-steering but in complete control. Bill & Diane are masters of their sport.

Chris Andrews - The Mailman

[John P]

Cool photo from the site Chris mentions above: