2276 & 86c

[1950split]

Hi guys,

I need your help. I'm going to upgrade my 2110 engine to a 82x94.

I selected a webcam 86c and CB 28mm ultralight lifters. However I'd like to make sure that these parts work well together and that I won't get either pitting on the lifters or a flat cam.  

I picked a set of Brother's Mid-D 44x37.5 heads with CB VW-650 springs and titanium retainers. CR will be set at 10.5. What would be the minimal security margin I need to leave before coil bind with these springs and the 86c ?

Finally, my DPR crank and Chromoly flywheel are held together with a standard 8 dowel pins machining and I use a KEP stage 1 and Daikin disc. Do I need to upgrade to 11/32" pins ? I will do some drag racing and Phoenix slicks will be used for this purpose..

Thanks a lot for your input.

Phil

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

If the dowels are a loose fit, then step up to 11/32.

Your combo sounds good.
That cam with those lifters should be fine. I really love CB L/W lifters. I have them in many motors and they always look perfect on inspections.
Those valve springs should work fine.
Take time to mesure the install height and use appropriate shim stack to get the install height right.
Coil bind should be about .050" more than max lift.
Measure your cam lift (don't trust what the cam card says).
Do the math and triple check everything.
Also look for retainer binding on the valve guides at full lift too.

[neil68]

Phil,

You will love the 86C.  I ran it last year in my heavy Beetle and ran some 12.9's at 104 MPH at 2,200 ft. elevation.  More importantly, it was quite smooth driving around town...very similar to the FK8.  Your combo is very similar to mine.  Good luck!

[1950split]

Guys,

Thanks for your answers.

I will use a straight cut gear for my cam. Which brand should I use ? CB, Bugpack or Magnum ? Is there a reason to pay much more for a Magnum ?

Phil

[neil68]

I've been running a CB "steel-on-steel" set for five years and five different camshafts...still in perfect condition.  They are also fairly quiet, except at start-up...

[maui]

I say the stage 1 and daiken no garans if going hold but the stage 2 can because I tried both and for me the stage 1 slip choke when I quick shift at 7000rpm and up and the 86c can go 7000rpm. So it's up to you if you like chance um or not.

[1950split]

Hi guys,

Neil, thanks, I'll go with CB's straight cut cam gear.

As for the clutch mecanism, I've read that Max hp with the 86c is between 5500 rpm and 6500rpm.. Therefore I won't be shifting much higher.. I thought it would be wise to keep the stage 1 as a fuse in order to allow some slippage instead of breaking the trans.. Am I wrong?

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

Max HP/tq will be determined by several things.
Cam, head flow, carb size, header size and design.
Don't limit yourself on paper. Wait until the motor is done and do some testing to figure out where it makes the power.

I would venture to say that an 86C with a good set of heads and carbs to flow thier full potential (48ida's), then more like 7,500rpm for max HP.

My new turbo motor as a set of those VW-650 springs installed.
I was cranking it to 8,300rpm all weekend. Pulling like a freight train.

my point is that you should build the motor so it can "safely" revv to 8,000rpm so you don't end up blowing it up no matter what rpm you take it to...

[1950split]

Hi Tom,

If I get you right, I should get a stage 2? I'll use brother's Mid-D heads with 44x38 valves, short Ida Berg manifolds and 48 idas with 42mm venturis. Exhaust is at present a Csp 1 5/8" Python exhaust.. Is this size enough. I should add that this car is mainly a weekend street driver..

[Darth Weber]

I'm no racer, so just a thought here. Since your motor is obviously going to be high horsepower and you intend to race it some and use slicks it would be wise to wedgemate the crank and flywheel right?

[1950split]

Hi Darth,
According to the answers above, it seems that a standard 8 dowel pin without wedgemating should handle the power.. If I need to wedgemate I'll have a budget problem as I would have to buy a new crank and flywheel assembly in the US. I'm not aware of someone wedgemating here in Europe..

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

My take on wedgmating... Remember this is my Opinion. I'm sure others have thiers...

Think about it like this. The flywheel and crankshaft see extreem vibration.
Every cyl that fires "kicks" the flywheel around.
If there is ANY (and I mean any) slop or play in the dowel fit, it will eventually, in time loosen up and fail.

A wedgmate is a good way to take away all free play.

Another way is to make sure your dowels are a "press fit" in the crank and fllywheel.
Most new cranks these days come with dowels pressed in so tight that you can't remove them w/o some special machines. This is good.
What I do is use a good O.G. flywheel and drill the extra 4 holes slightly smaller than 8mm. I then (very carefully using special fixture) press the fllywheel onto the crank the first time.
This "broaches" the holes and makes a perfect press fit.
After that, if I ever take it apart, I always use a flywheel puller so as not egg out the holes for re-installation.
I never pry or walk the flywheel back and forth as this will destroy the dowl fit.
I'm currently running 300+hp thru my motor this way.

If the dowels are loose fit, then I suggest going to 11/32" dowel pins and size the holes for a press fit. This works very well too.

A light coating of Loctite retianing compound on the dowels is good insurance too.



1 5/8" is as small as I would go on Exh size. A 1 3/4" would work better with your combo.

[1950split]

Thanks alot Tom!

[fiatdude]

I thought it would be wise to keep the stage 1 as a fuse in order to allow some slippage instead of breaking the trans.. Am I wrong?

Clutch slippage sucks -- if you're worried about trans breakage go to narrower tires

(Old Chinese proverb -- Better to burn Tire than to burn clutch)

 and go with stage 2 and a good disc

[maui]

Yea I'm like you and I rather have a little tire spin in stead of clutch slip.

[1950split]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for these advices..

To sum-up, I'll do the following :

- Keep my standard 8 dowel pin unless it feels loose, in which case I'd go 11/32"pins ;

- Buy a stage 2.

Which clutch disc should I use with the stage 2 ? Would the daikin do the job?

[superdrag]

I run a stock, unsprung disc in my drag car with a stage 2.  No slippage.

[Kevin Alexander]

You should like that cam, I have it in my 2332 with CB wedgeports and CB650 springs. Made peak hp @ 6300. If I upgrade my 44 idfs with 38 vents to IDAs with 42mm vents I am sure the power will move to a higher RPM.

[superdrag]

Kind of getting back to the topic title, I am leaning towards this cam in my drag car.  Currently I have a 2187 with street eliminators out of the box except for flycutting, engle 130 with 1.1's, 48 idf's, 1 5/8" exhaust, and 11 to 1.  With this setup I have run a few 8.0's.  This winter I am going to a 86c with 1.4's, 12 to 1 compression, and 1 3/4" exhaust.  Maybe a SMALL amount of porting.  I am hoping to get into the 7's with this new combo.  I picked this cam because I want to get more power, but at the same time I want to keep the rpm's down around 6500 to 7000. 

[1950split]

Hi Guys,

It cost me but I ordered a new 82mm Crank assembly from DPR through Brothers. It will be 11/32" dowel pined with a press fit OEM lightened flywheel. I'll use a KEP stage 2 and daikin heavy duty disc. I also ordered a sleeved case from Brothers so that I can sleep at night after racing  ..

Superdrag, I was advised by many that the 86c needs compression but everyone told me to stay at around 10.5, 12 is a lot and I don't know if you'll get a real gain.

I'll use my Brothers mid-D 44*38 heads with short Berg IDA manifolds. The Idas will have 42 venturis, 55 idle, 120 idle air, 170 main jets, 200 main air correction.

I hope I'll be in the ballpark with this jetting..

Phil

[maui]

My old 2176 with 42x37 with E130x1.25s, 10+1 and 48s with 42 vents and gears did a best of 12.61 at 105 no burnout and it went 7+8 grand 1st and 2nd easy and at sea level my jets were F10-70 and 120 and 165Mx195AxF7 and it was very smooth and my 48s got no 3rd hole.